Will SPOT Tracking Ever Replace Witnesses?

[Vanderwho]

I'm toying with the idea of a Great Lakes 100 ride in July. As I always do, I will carry a SPOT tracking device. (For background... I've done four certified rides, including a BBG, and competed well in a 5-day rally.)

The thing that has me on the fence is rounding up reliable eyewitnesses. Since I won't be starting the ride from or ending the ride at or near an overnight stop, I will have limited options for witnesses. Will the IBA ever change the rules and accept a SPOT track in lieu of eyewitnesses, perhaps for the non-extreme rides? It seems to me to be as secure a verification element.

 

[Ira]

I'm toying with the idea of a Great Lakes 100 ride in July. As I always do, I will carry a SPOT tracking device. (For background... I've done four certified rides, including a BBG, and competed well in a 5-day rally.)

The thing that has me on the fence is rounding up reliable eyewitnesses. Since I won't be starting the ride from or ending the ride at or near an overnight stop, I will have limited options for witnesses. Will the IBA ever change the rules and accept a SPOT track in lieu of eyewitnesses, perhaps for the non-extreme rides? It seems to me to be as secure a verification element.

Not in the immediate future.

Although SPOT tracks are excellent additional documentation, it can't for example, demonstrate you were on a motorcycle, as opposed to a car. Neither can it determine if you were the person taking the ride. Although the present system is not foolproof, it seems to work well.

If satellite track logs were to replace any existing documentation element, it would more likely replace receipts, as opposed to the witness requirement.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association

 

[Vanderwho]

Thanks, Ira. Unfortunately, not precisely what I was hoping to hear. Oh, well...

 

[Steve Bracken]

Thanks, Ira. Unfortunately, not precisely what I was hoping to hear. Oh, well...

If this is your first Certificate ride, it is normal to wonder how easy it is to document most rides. However, the experience usually is that it is incredibly easy, in most cases. Folk are generally very pleased to hear about your ride, and sign witness forms. Don't tell a cop it is a "witness" form, tell him/her it is for verification. They usually understand and are happy to help.

If your ride has an element that is outside the norm for such attempts, ask the IBA (Ira) in advance. The IBA has always been happy to discuss any individual requirements, and work with riders. One such issue that had to be overcome is the fact that there is nowhere to get a receipt in Badwater Basin, for the Heaven to Hell ride. It was fixed.

 

[Ira]

Actually, someone mentioned to me there is now a place to obtain a receipt at Badwater.

Ira

 

[Steve Bracken]

Actually, someone mentioned to me there is now a place to obtain a receipt at Badwater.

Heh ... Of course there is

And the top of Mount Evans?

 

[Ira]

Not yet.

Ira

 

[kwthom]

Actually, someone mentioned to me there is now a place to obtain a receipt at Badwater.

Self-serve Nat'l Park payment station.

Heh ... Of course there is

And the top of Mount Evans?

Even if there was another pay station there; having one (or both) of those be inoperative at the time of a ride start might be enough to drive some people out of their mind.

 

[JimBurriss]

I would fall into that category........ I stress over receipts, especially start and finish ones. It should be a law that every gas station has to have perfect receipts...Just kidding. It is all in the fun and adventure of this sport. It can make for great stories for sure.

 

[Chuck]

I have a question about receipts. Suppose you arrive at a business, hoping to get a receipt, but you arrive outside of their business hours. An example would be a supper club that is only open during the evening, but you arrive at breakfast or lunchtime. Or, a gas station that is only open during the day, but you arrive in the middle of the night.

What do you do? Can you note the time and location that you were there in your log book, note that the place was closed, and move on?

Of course, if the business it permanently shut down, it does not count.

 

[Ira]

I have a question about receipts. Suppose you arrive at a business, hoping to get a receipt, but you arrive outside of their business hours. An example would be a supper club that is only open during the evening, but you arrive at breakfast or lunchtime. Or, a gas station that is only open during the day, but you arrive in the middle of the night.

What do you do? Can you note the time and location that you were there in your log book, note that the place was closed, and move on?

Of course, if the business it permanently shut down, it does not count.

I'm not sure what the question is. If you need to document your location and the place where you had "hoped" to get a receipt cannot provide a receipt, you should look for another nearby place that can generate a receipt. Just noting it in your log is not sufficient. Remember, in addition to stores, restaurants, motels, etc. you could also generate a receipt from an ATM machine or automated parking. Also, a lot of gas stations leave their pumps on even when they are closed. So you should check the pumps. And in general, you might want to include checking out potential documentation points as part of your ride research to make sure they're open and provide a good receipt.

Bottom line - it is up to you to demonstrate you rode the ride you claim by submitting sufficient documentation to do so.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association

 

[Chuck]

I'm not sure what the question is. If you need to document your location and the place where you had "hoped" to get a receipt cannot provide a receipt, you should look for another nearby place that can generate a receipt. Just noting it in your log is not sufficient. Remember, in addition to stores, restaurants, motels, etc. you could also generate a receipt from an ATM machine or automated parking. Also, a lot of gas stations leave their pumps on even when they are closed. So you should check the pumps. And in general, you might want to include checking out potential documentation points as part of your ride research to make sure they're open and provide a good receipt.

Bottom line - it is up to you to demonstrate you rode the ride you claim by submitting sufficient documentation to do so.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association

Thanks for the reply, Ira.

I do not intend to ever attempt an Iron Butt ride. I am merely an amateur, volunteer route planner.

My question is - except for the one business located in the community - what if there is no where else to get a receipt? I'll give you a specific example. Say a person is attempting a 48-10. The rider wants to fulfill the requirements for Minnesota. The rider arrives in Manley, MN.

The town of Manley, MN has a grand total of one business in it, Manley Tire & Auto Service. It is a large combination garage/tire shop/gas station, but they are not open 24 hours per day - not even the gas pumps. To buy gas there, you must arrive during their business hours. There are no ATMs in Manley. The only transaction that can be undertaken at any time - 24 hours a day - is buying soda pop from the vending machines in front of Manley Tire & Auto. However, these vending machines do not issue receipts.

So, are you saying that if the rider arrives in Manley at night, when Manley Tire & Auto is closed (and they don't have time to wait around for them to open), then there is no way that they can "count" Manley as a community in Minnesota, for the purposes of the 48-10, and they'll have to go somewhere else to document Minnesota? Is that the case? Even if the person has a SPOT device?

In this case, it might be even slightly more complicated, because receipts issued by Manley Tire & Auto read "Valley Springs, SD" on them, even though the business is in Rock County, Minnesota, over a mile away from the South Dakota border. I assume it's because that's where they get their mail.

If I'm going to plan routes, I need to know if places like Manley only "count" while the business is open, and the rider is out-of-luck if they arrive outside of Manley Tire & Auto's business hours.

 

[Steve Bracken]

So, are you saying that if the rider arrives in Manley at night, when Manley Tire & Auto is closed (and they don't have time to wait around for them to open), then there is no way that they can "count" Manley as a community in Minnesota, for the purposes of the 48-10, and they'll have to go somewhere else to document Minnesota? Is that the case? Even if the person has a SPOT device?

That's how I always understood it ... and what I had to do on my 48/10. The business I wanted to use was closed, so I went down the road a couple of miles to find one that was open

The 48/10 is not a normal ride, because "miles" are not a feature ... but documenting the states correctly is.

 

[Ira]

Thanks for the reply, Ira.

I do not intend to ever attempt an Iron Butt ride. I am merely an amateur, volunteer route planner.

My question is - except for the one business located in the community - what if there is no where else to get a receipt? I'll give you a specific example. Say a person is attempting a 48-10. The rider wants to fulfill the requirements for Minnesota. The rider arrives in Manley, MN.

The town of Manley, MN has a grand total of one business in it, Manley Tire & Auto Service. It is a large combination garage/tire shop/gas station, but they are not open 24 hours per day - not even the gas pumps. To buy gas there, you must arrive during their business hours. There are no ATMs in Manley. The only transaction that can be undertaken at any time - 24 hours a day - is buying soda pop from the vending machines in front of Manley Tire & Auto. However, these vending machines do not issue receipts.

So, are you saying that if the rider arrives in Manley at night, when Manley Tire & Auto is closed (and they don't have time to wait around for them to open), then there is no way that they can "count" Manley as a community in Minnesota, for the purposes of the 48-10, and they'll have to go somewhere else to document Minnesota? Is that the case? Even if the person has a SPOT device?

In this case, it might be even slightly more complicated, because receipts issued by Manley Tire & Auto read "Valley Springs, SD" on them, even though the business is in Rock County, Minnesota, over a mile away from the South Dakota border. I assume it's because that's where they get their mail.

If I'm going to plan routes, I need to know if places like Manley only "count" while the business is open, and the rider is out-of-luck if they arrive outside of Manley Tire & Auto's business hours.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Places like Manley "count" only if you can obtain a good receipt. As the rules explicitly state,

-------------------------------------
In each State, you must ride to a city, town or community and document your visit (i.e., picture of "Welcome to State" sign is not acceptable).

• Obtain a dated business receipt showing the name of city, town or community along with the STATE (this information should be pre-printed or computer generated, not hand written) and the business name. Most gasoline station receipts are acceptable.

----------------------------------------
So the rules require you to do two things: ride to a town and document it. If there is no place to obtain a receipt in Manley, you need to go somewhere where you can obtain a receipt, like maybe Worthington. If you look at the "Next Exit" phone app, it will tell you where on I-90 there is 24-hour gas.

The fact that Manley Tire and Auto does not even provide a "good" receipt (with the proper location information) would make it a poor documentation choice in any case.

This is a perfect example of the value of the planning process in such a big ride. If a few minutes of research in the comfort of your living room can save an hour or two of aggravation on the clock, I'd do it.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association

 

[kwthom]

<...>I do not intend to ever attempt an Iron Butt ride. I am merely an amateur, volunteer route planner.
<snip>

Intriguing...

If I'm going to plan routes, I need to know if places like Manley only "count" while the business is open, and the rider is out-of-luck if they arrive outside of Manley Tire & Auto's business hours.

For many of the 100+ IBA ride possibilities there are available, only a handful are at a location (which may have a suitable businesses to obtain a receipt that are NOT open 24/7).

An example is the "Why? to Whynot? ride" (I'll let you research that one, Chuck). The premise is you must arrive at the time the small handful of businesses are open - plain and simple.

So, if I'm doing a 36 hour version of this ride, I plan my arrival time at the 35th hour in Whynot, MS and plan the ride in reverse. If I want to arrive at 2pm local time, I'm leaving at 3am central time the day before. Then, I take into account the time delta from CDT to AZ time (2 hours) which makes it 0100 AZ Time.

Tying this back to the original subject somewhat...SPOT in an excellent secondary level of verification. The IBA has always utilized as a primary tool the simple "good" receipt (with the proper location information) as proof you 'been there, done that'.

 

[Chuck]

OK, so a rider that arrives at Manley Tire & Auto Service while they're open gets to count it, while a rider that arrives after closing time (if he does not have time to wait for them to re-open) does not. (Yeah, I'm ignoring the way Manley Tire & Auto prints their receipts - that was not my primary question. But, while I'm on the subject - Would the IBA Association really reject somebody's ride over that kind of a technicality? That it's located in Rock County, Minnesota is an established fact. It's provable. Their location is over a mile away from the South Dakota line. Would the IBA reject the rider's ride, when faced with such indisputable evidence that the business is located in Minnesota? Really?)

At least I'm now aware of that.

 

[Ira]

OK, so a rider that arrives at Manley Tire & Auto Service while they're open gets to count it, while a rider that arrives after closing time (if he does not have time to wait for them to re-open) does not. (Yeah, I'm ignoring the way Manley Tire & Auto prints their receipts - that was not my primary question. But, while I'm on the subject - Would the IBA Association really reject somebody's ride over that kind of a technicality? That it's located in Rock County, Minnesota is an established fact. It's provable. Their location is over a mile away from the South Dakota line. Would the IBA reject the rider's ride, when faced with such indisputable evidence that the business is located in Minnesota? Really?)

At least I'm now aware of that.

Yes, the rider who could properly document their stop would get credit and the one who couldn't would not.

It would be up to the verification team to determine if a receipt from a business in MN would be acceptable if it shows an ND address on it, but the idea would be to minimize the number of questionable receipts. Would you really want to take the chance that it would not be accepted after riding 8,000-10,000 miles? I sure wouldn't, especially if I spotted it and had the chance to obtain a good receipt somewhere else.

For this ride, it's not just a question of demonstrating you visited the state (note the prohibition regarding the use of "Welcome to . . ." signs when you cross into a state and other documentation showing one was in the state, but was unacceptable for some other reason). It's a question of providing the documentation the ride demands. But if you want to spend your time arguing with the verification team (an argument you probably won't win), be my guest.

This is a valuable discussion if you are a volunteer route planner. Are you willing to accept documentation that doesn't meet the requirements of the ride? Or do you want the riders to follow your instructions, especially if they are unambiguous? Perhaps on your rides, you will accept documentation other than that called for that demonstrates the rider went to where they were supposed to go. And that's fine. But the Iron Butt Association, in this particular instance, doesn't.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association

 

[Chuck]

I do not give anyone instructions, nor do I accept documentation. My only goal is to provide geographic information to people that might be helpful to them, that's all. Maybe "route planner" is too strong of a phrase to apply to me. Call me a geographer.

I'm familiar with the IBA rules - if I wasn't I would have never asked Manley Tire & Auto how their receipts are printed - I guess I should call them and advise them to order a new batch of receipts from their printer, printed with their real geographic location on them, haha. Knowing how polite Minnesotans are, they just might do it.

At least now I know that suggesting a supper club that is only open for 4 hours in the evening each day as a business to get a receipt from for a 48-10 is not very helpful, unless perhaps I also disseminate exactly what hours it's open.

I'm just trying to figure out what geographic information might be helpful, and what isn't.

While I certainly would never advise anyone to take chances, my sincere hope would be, if the example I gave were to actually happen, the verification team would choose not to reject a rider's 48-10 over that. For that specific example, my hope would be that that's an argument that the rider probably would win, not one that he probably wouldn't. I'd never want to see anyone lose their 48-10 over that circumstance, but that's just me.

 

[kwthom]

<...>my sincere hope would be, if the example I gave were to actually happen, the verification team would choose not to reject a rider's 48-10 over that. For that specific example, my hope would be that that's an argument that the rider probably would win, not one that he probably wouldn't. I'd never want to see anyone lose their 48-10 over that circumstance, but that's just me.

In a ride such as a 48/10, there's a minimal amount of ambiguity in the documentation required. Choosing that specific location for a ride that's ten days may not be in the best interest of a rider - especially if this location is in a "clip the corner" routing from adjacent states.

As I mentioned in my example above, I *know* that I have ending locations with this specific ride that are only open certain hours. It's a point-to-point ride; up to the rider (me) to decide when/if they will be able to make the arrival at a given point to collect that receipt. In the 48/10 scenario, I have but a single opportunity to roll up to a location, get the receipt and review it's contents. If it's not adequate, now I'm losing time in finding a receipt that meets specifications.

I really don't wish to agonize the verification team with a questionable receipt. The object of the task is to make it as *easy* as possible to maximize the time for the volunteers that are performing this for the IBA.

 

[Paul Knight]

I just checked and only 4 miles down the road from Manley MN is Rauks Hilltop Stop and Convenience Store which has 24 hour pumps and is in MN. I called the gas station a few minutes ago and confirmed.

This is how I am am planning my 48/10 ride departing on July 2nd . I am calling each and every planned GAS stop to confirm hours of operation of the pumps and am planning accordingly.

Also I just did a google maps street view of the Manley Tire & Auto Service location and noticed that the pumps were the OLDER style with NO pay at the pump capabilities. I called the station and they confirmed that they do not print receipts at the pump. For me this completly rules out any stop at Manley Tire & Auto Service and I would route to Rauks Hilltop Stop and Convenience Store just 4 miles down the road for a good receipt.

Just my .02 cents