GPS Suggestions

[keithu]

Same as with a dedicated GPS. They need maps to be installed, licensed and updated - no Garmin, tom rom, etc device comes with maps of the full world that keeps updated with no action.

That's true, but when you buy a new GPS from Garmin it typically comes pre-loaded with maps for your continent. With a phone you have to intentionally pre-load maps for offline use. It's not quite as turnkey as a Garmin GPS.

OTOH, at least the maps on your phone auto-update whenever you have cell service. With Garmin, map updates are a very manual process.

 

[Shawn K]

BUT I am afraid you are wrong, my friend. Most modern smartphones have, in fact, a GPS receiver within their electronics.

True, but without a cellular connection to update or display maps, all it can do is show you a blue dot on a picture. No navigation possible.

"But I have maps downloaded on my phone!" Sure, but you had to do that over a Wi-Fi or cellular connection. So we're back to the same issue.

Technically speaking, phones use A-GPS (Assisted Global Positioning System), which uses cellular networks in addition to GPS receivers. A-GPS hardware relies on (i.e. must have) connection to an ISP for full functionality. So while your statement is correct in as far as it went, it wasn't the full picture. A standalone navigational device (e.g. Garmin Zumo) operates completely independently of cellular networks, which has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Some think I'm being pedantic, but knowing distinctions like this is part of how I make my living. There's a lot of misinformation, half-information, and outright falsehoods out there, and for me it's important to help people understand exactly what it is they're using. The BW:BS ration (bandwidth to bulls**t) is pretty large in life as it is, and anything that helps get to the core truths is good by me.

 

[igneouss]

In my first rally I used a Garmin 2720. Over time I migrated along with technology to more modern Garmins. More recently I am increasingly reliant on my phone.
Phone pros and cons: many modern phones are water proof to the same standard as motorcycle garmins. You do need a cell signal for full function. Waze is way better at point to point navigation than garmin. It's hard to upload routes to phones. Vibration damping charging mount eliminates several problems.
Garmins allow better upload-ability (not good - clunky but doable). Garmin works most places (but not always!) I've been several places where garmin couldn't see satelites - canyons, deep woods.

So these days my typical rally involves uploading bonus info/locations to garmin that allows me to see the big picture. and doing point to point navigation with Waze. If I need to find a gas station or hotel I general switch to Google maps to search and back to Waze for navigation.

I still have a use for Garmin and I don't see it going away but I can now do more with a phone than I could ever do with Garmin.

I wish some wizard would come up with a rally app that would allow planning on the lap top and upload points to Waze

 

[jesus malaga]

True, but without a cellular connection to update or display maps, all it can do is show you a blue dot on a picture. No navigation possible.

"But I have maps downloaded on my phone!" Sure, but you had to do that over a Wi-Fi or cellular connection. So we're back to the same issue.

Technically speaking, phones use A-GPS (Assisted Global Positioning System), which uses cellular networks in addition to GPS receivers. A-GPS hardware relies on (i.e. must have) connection to an ISP for full functionality. So while your statement is correct in as far as it went, it wasn't the full picture. A standalone navigational device (e.g. Garmin Zumo) operates completely independently of cellular networks, which has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Some think I'm being pedantic, but knowing distinctions like this is part of how I make my living. There's a lot of misinformation, half-information, and outright falsehoods out there, and for me it's important to help people understand exactly what it is they're using. The BW:BS ration (bandwidth to bulls**t) is pretty large in life as it is, and anything that helps get to the core truths is good by me.

Your information is totally outdated. Most modern phones use full GPS.

I have used my phone to track my exact position while in a the middle of the sea. Hundreds of miled to a GPRS network. And it worked perfectly as it has a pure GPS receiver

A-GPS means that a phone device can use the GPRS network to increase speed to start positioning. That means a phone can get aproximate position even underground. Or improve exactitude in low GPS signal situations like narrow streets. Where traditional GPS devices result is bullshit.

But almost every mid level phone manufactured in the last years is able to fallback to pure GPS signaling after this. High end I can even disable A-GPS in my phone if i want.

All of what would mean something... If we all would not live in modern occident countries, where cell phone coverage covers 98% territory, meaning worrying about lack of phone antennas is like worrying for not finding drinking water. But well, even if it happens, my phone is able to keep giving me GPS and navigation information. Same or better than any Garmin device.

And I need wifi or whatever to update my maps, sure.. Same as you. Unless you buy a new Garmin every year or keep using same outdated maps forever. Do you?

If you prefer to buy more to get less, and keep thinking phones do not evolve, it is up to you.

Or even return to use old maps.

But as you say... Do not missinformate others. Go and learn about modern electronics before trying to convince people to refuse advantages of technology: https://www.dxomark.com/gps-on-your-smartphone-why-youre-not-always-there-when-it-says-youre-there

 

[Shawn K]

All of what would mean something... If we all would not live in modern occident countries, where cell phone coverage covers 98% territory, meaning worrying about lack of phone antennas is like worrying for not finding drinking water.

Speak for yourself over there in the south of Spain. I just returned last week from an 8000-mile trip from one end of the United States to another, covering 24 different states, 4 different time zones, and just about every kind of terrain you can imagine. There are significant portions of this nation where cell phone service is nonexistent. Large swaths of the desert southwest have no cellular reception, and coverage in mountainous areas is often compromised anywhere except on highways. So portraying "worrying about lack of phone antennas" as foolishness in the modern era is not foolish, and for some riders (mainly people who visit this forum and who live in the United States), it can very much be an issue worth considering. I myself had many stretches of time on this last trip where I had no cellular service whatsoever. It was wonderful.

Additionally, you know nothing about me or what technology I use. My motorcycle has two standalone GPS units, a cell phone running two different navigation programs, and a satellite tracker. Hell, it even has a paper map in the trunk at the moment. My pickup truck runs Android Auto. I have spiral-bound, laminated road atlases covering multiple decades, as well as a collection of very nice Butler Maps highlighting some of the best roads in America. I've been a SysAdmin over navigational tools in the logistics industry for the last decade. I'm about as conversant in navigation technology as anyone has a right to be, and at no point in my last comment did I try to "convince people to refuse advantages of technology". The only person who seems to be doing that in this thread is you.

I see no reason for me to comment further in this thread, since you appear to be the type who wants to take issue with anyone who doesn't see things exactly the way you do. Best of luck to you in Malaga.

 

[bikerbill]

I wish some wizard would come up with a rally app that would allow planning on the lap top and upload points to Waze

I can’t help with the rally planning. But, for iPhone, the app GPXviewer from Modesitt will accept a gpx file. I copy the coordinates for a waypoint from the app then paste them into Waze. Waze then does it navigating magic to get me there.

Sidenote: a gpx file can be uploaded directly from a smart phone to a ZumoXT via the Garmin Drive app.

 

[jesus malaga]

I see no reason for me to comment further in this thread, since you appear to be the type who wants to take issue with anyone who doesn't see things exactly the way you do. Best of luck to you in Malaga.

Guy, you ignoring the 90% content of my message, and the link that proofs you are wrong with technical data, and half cut my paragraph to citate only the part of your insterest looks much more "having issues with anyone who doesn't see things exactly your way".

If you prefer to ignore information is up to you. But don't pretend I have said what i did not.

I have the best here, do not mind. Including capacity of using all the advantages modern technology offer. Not only here in Spain but also in the middle of sahara dessert. And in the middle of mediterranean sea.

And have a very good friend who have spent two weeks crossing the mojave area last month and can you imagine what did he use to navigate? yes, you guessed... his european samsung smartphone not even compatible with most USA networks!! its GPS was working even while his prepayed local phone was no signal!!

It is you, not me, who could be losing options because not being able to understand smartphones now work in a different way as 10 years ago.

Either way someone asked "what do you use?" and I answered what i do and the reasons why. It is you and I couple more trying to convince me and other "no, wrong! does not work!".

Well it works. But no one told you to use it. So you don't tell others what we can't use.

 

[Russ Black]

Guy, you ignoring the 90% content of my message, and the link that proofs you are wrong with technical data, and half cut my paragraph to citate only the part of your insterest looks much more "having issues with anyone who doesn't see things exactly your way".

I see it as you are describing yourself. Shawn K has alot of hands on and personal experience with actual GPS's and phones as do I. He has shared his knowledge with the many, many, many people that have posted a question on this forum since 2020 (vs 2024), Some of us for even longer. The OP is referring to Tracking, not navagating. Both my mother and father gave me some good advice when I was just a young scooter, and that was to never argue with your grandmother when she tells you how to milk ducks.

 

[Shawn K]

Both my mother and father gave me some good advice when I was just a young scooter, and that was to never argue with your grandmother when she tells you how to milk ducks.

Salient wisdom for the ages!

Thanks for the chuckle, Russ!

 

[jesus malaga]

I see it as you are describing yourself. Shawn K has alot of hands on and personal experience with actual GPS's and phones as do I. He has shared his knowledge with the many, many, many people that have posted a question on this forum since 2020 (vs 2024), Some of us for even longer. The OP is referring to Tracking, not navagating. Both my mother and father gave me some good advice when I was just a young scooter, and that was to never argue with your grandmother when she tells you how to milk ducks.

Well, if he is sharing with you information from 2020 in this forum, I have a telecommunications engineering degree and have been working with cell phones, programming and repairing them since 2002. And also have personally worked for a GPS manufacturing firm.

Doubt your grand mother told you to decide who knows about a technology question depending on how many messages have you read of someone in a motorcycle touring forum.

In fact the device your great friend citated, the garmin zumo, is in no way able to be used as a tracker for spotwalla (now you mention the original OP). You need a Garmin Inreach, or a SPOT tracking unit, for that. And those have no relation to most of the following content of this post, that maybe started with that question but later moved about discussion of GPS navigation devices.

Mostly because not much to say over that... not enough options to communicate to spotwalla to discuss about.

Maybe you think Shawn K can teach you many things, but he is no one to try to teach me about GPS engineering. And that of you saying "he is a well known guy here so he must know more than you"... well, I am not going to write how that sound because I do not want to be disrespectful.

It is up to you if you feel you prefer to follow his advice. But not to tell me I should stop speaking about things I am professional on, and know more than you.

This is my last comment in this post. It is very annoying this situation of trying to share with people about the state of the art in GPS technologies, to only find a bunch of hard headed guys who instead of using the information, or simply saying "not for me", try to take the chance to be the most important guys in the class speaking about technology they do not even know.

 

[Russ Black]

And I have been in telecommunication in one way or another since I was a child. That was before push button telephones and color TV. Not before dirt though. My grandparents didn't have dirt and dirt was new when my parents were kids. Now where is that horn of mine so i can toot it.

 

[Ira]

I encourage this to be the end of the thread. Thanks.

Ira

 

[RacersEdge]

Lots of interesting information on this thread. I thought I would give some of my thoughts on the subject of phones, satellite communicators' and GPS devices. When used on my motorcycle I have found the iphones that I've had are not glove friendly, not waterproof either. Only recently have my iphones been able to share location information in real time. I have been using a SPOT device to share real time location data with my wife and as a security blanket for me for SOS services. I have been told that the iPhone 14 can also provide this service.

About 15 years ago (2010) I started using a ZUMO GPS to create tracks and routes to share with other riders. My MC Club (The Ramapo MC) is well known for public rides, we provided route sheets. I for one, could not safely navigate while reading a route sheet. I found that I could test ride the route to record a shareable track and the track could be edited on a computer to adjust for my riding errors. While this is a GPS function, this is not the typical GPS function and most GPS devices either do not create or give you access to the recorded track or will not accept a recorded track or route. At our events we set up computers to down load over USB to the ZUMO devices very successfully. To other devices less successfully. Recent changes to smartphone apps are allowing them to use a GPX file that we can send via email! The new ZUMO has this function too (And Bluetooth). Almost all those riding our public rides much prefer the GPS to the route sheets.

To be clear, the Crotona Midnight Run is still route sheets only, no GPS devices allowed.

BTW: The Garmin computer map software, Base Camp, is long in the tooth. I still use it to edit my recorded tracks.

As the more common use of a GPS to to take you from your location to another location, there are many choices on the market now. There are many smartphones and GPS devices that can do this, but can they do it in the rain with your gloves on?

I am going to continue my SPOT subscription ($150/yr) for at least another year. It is an always on device and the batteries last 2 weeks or more. It sends a spot every 10 minutes and an "I'm OK message" on demand; while on the road I send the OK message each morning and evening.

BTW2: This past August, I used Base Camp to create my first SaddleSore 1000 route. I down loaded it to my ZUMO. I provided the GPS file, the recorded track and the SPOT Events as part of the evidence of the ride. I received my IBA Certificate just the other day!

 

[jesus malaga]

For those who are still convinced a smartphone is not able to work as standalone GPS, a few days ago I had a rare occasion and remembered this thread. That kind of occasions where I have had not any kind of GSM service and that did not mean any kind of problem to use my smartphone as dedicated GPS receiver.

I was flying from Spain to Scotland. While flying my wife, as she uses to, was following the advance of plane over the map, using the phone GPS. So I take the chance to record a video of how GPS is nicely tracking the position:

That is flying 20-30K feet over the center of Spain. Far to any GSM signal coverage. You can see the phone signaling is 100% off (as expected while cruise flying in a jet plane) , and also you can perfectly notice the constant active positioning.

Map is very empty as there is not any kind of GPRS data service to provide details. But that could have been prevented by previously downloading maps in google maps or using an offline app like sygic or tomtom go

And she is using a relative cheap, not specially powerful common Xiaomi Redmi phone. I also have a nice recording of my own displacement through bubler, saying moving at more than 400 mph.

I am sure no one here can explain this behaviour by a different way but accepting a modern mid level android phone has perfect independent, pretty exact, GPS reception, without any need of GPRs service.

Obviously anyone can decide to buy or not buy a Garmin GPS, a carplay, a marine GPS or whatever. But not for the reason to be "A smartphone will not work if I lose line service".

 

[Russ Black]

I would like for you to aquatint yourself with how VHF (30 MHZ) and above radio signals work. It's called "Line of Sight" and that's why they put those antennas on top of towers, building, mountains. Even though your GPS capable phone knows where it is, the navigation apps on said phone only downloads a small portion of the map into it's buffer to display it's location. Open the app out of cell tower coverage or run off the buffered map, you just get a blue dot in the middle of a blank screen. And just like being in the middle of the ocean, you can not navigate using a blank screen. The phone needs that data connection. There are places where you can use your phone for voice communications, but data is not available. No data, no map. The aircraft you where flying in was close enough to, and at an elevation high enough for the cellphone to "see" the cell towers antenna on the coast. Aircraft and ships that cross the oceans use satellite based communication systems. These satellites overcome the earths horizon but can only receive and transmit to devices its antenna can "see". Think of the sun. Only the part of the world that can "see" the sun is lit.

 

[kwthom]

Final thought:

 

[Russ Black]

Final thought:

Yes... You understand it completely! I couldn't have explained it any better... Thanks!

 

[jesus malaga]

jajajajaja @Russ Black really???

"see" the GSM antennas at 30K feet height, where nominative signal reduction by distance of GSM antenas is " over -20Db"? no call signaling, no ability to make even an emergency call... but the phone receives the position signaling.

And still convinced there is no way to download maps in the memory.

Guy... You remind me those guys who say earth is plain explaining the satellite pictures.

I hope some others around will see the video and understand how stupid it sounds the phone not receive any GSM service but the positioning, only if you are 10 kilometers high in atmosphere.

I plan to get back to sahara dessert during 2026, and also plan to flight to USA in a not far future. I promise will post here videos of exact GPS positioning in the middle of nowhere in Algeria, and in the middle of atlantic ocean. I am willing to read your "explanations".

 

[EricV]

@jesus malaga - You don't need to share, it's not really relevant to LD motorcycling. Some people like using their phones, others a GPS, many use both. Phones don't work well in high heat or rain when mounted on the bike out in the elements. Carplay devices can solve those issues, but have other issues of their own and may or may not work for various users.

You said you have a telecommunications engineering degree. Excellent! This also means you're almost incapable of grasping the average end user's needs. Let it go, enjoy your trip and try to get in some riding.

 

[jesus malaga]

@jesus malaga - You don't need to share, it's not really relevant to LD motorcycling. Some people like using their phones, others a GPS, many use both. Phones don't work well in high heat or rain when mounted on the bike out in the elements. Carplay devices can solve those issues, but have other issues of their own and may or may not work for various users.

You said you have a telecommunications engineering degree. Excellent! This also means you're almost incapable of grasping the average end user's needs. Let it go, enjoy your trip and try to get in some riding.

That's not the point, obviously anyone can use what their want, and different devices.

But you can't say a device does not do what it does. This is not related with "what device accomplish my needs" in any manner.

We are here to share the TRUE information about those device features, and that way any one using this as advice will know what to expect and how to decide. But giving false confused information in sort of like a "I decided this so I am going to spread misinformation about what i decided not to use" is not acceptable in any manner.

And if me, or someone else, come here and share some experience, knowledge, or whatever about a device, you can say "ah, good to know, maybe will fit me", you can say "not what I need", or you can simply refuse read or answer.

But not respectable any one to come and decide to shut my mouth spreading false information saying my device is not able to do what I perfectly know can do not simply by theory, but because I have in fact used it that way and worked. What in the way implies to say I am a liar - as if I assert I have used a device to do something, and you assert my device can't do what I say... that necessarily mean I am lying. Or I am a perfect stupid who is not even able to understand what he is doing.

And believe me... I do perfectly know for every unit of bike dedicated GPS like a Garmin Zumo or a Tomtom Rider is sold, hundreds of motorcycle phone holders are sold. Only quadlock revenues over the full revenues of garmin full portable GPS line (including both car and motorcycle). And they sell much cheaper devices, so unit proportion have to be much higher. In only one brand of handlebar mount phone systems.

That is... there are huuugely much more users that decide to use his phone in the motorcycle than to buy a GPS device.

So I am affraid it is you who is far to be aware of what the average user needs if you think a Garmin is "the general accepted answer".

Understand me... do not pretend to tell you about what YOU should use. But do not confuse your needs, or what you think is the answer to those needs with "the average user".

So for those interested in information, I have added information perfectly showing what a modern smartphone can do.

For the others not interested on using a phone as GPS... maybe you could all find better entertainings than trying to avoid me sharing and others reading such information.