Question about BMW final drive issues

igneouss

Premier Member
#1
I'm shopping bikes and I recently stumbled on a used GSA (2013). Being familiar with the history of final drive problems I did a bit of searching... No luck. The question is "from what year forward is the final drive not likely to fail?" Surprised me that this info didn't pop up. Maybe it's just sub standard search skills... Anybody help with this question?

Thanks
Nick
 

Vlad

Premier Member
#2
A 2013 model won’t have any systemic failure issues. It will depend on service history. The drive on that unit holds 180 ml of oil, not much. It needs to be changed regularly. If you put the bike on the centre stand and grab the wheel at 9 and 3 o’clock and wiggle it, there should be no perceptible movement. If there is the main bearing could be suspect. Not inexpensive to fix.
 

Marc11

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#4
I'm shopping bikes and I recently stumbled on a used GSA (2013). Being familiar with the history of final drive problems I did a bit of searching... No luck. The question is "from what year forward is the final drive not likely to fail?" Surprised me that this info didn't pop up. Maybe it's just sub standard search skills... Anybody help with this question?

Thanks
Nick
2013 and 2014 final drives had a higher failure rate than pre 2013 or post 2014 as BMW made changes with the 2013 year and again in 2015 or there about.

Some failures were catastrophic and well documented, some, will have simple to fix blown seals from too much oil and no vent.

In 2013 BMW came out with the new final drive with the wet head motor which specified a higher oil quantity 220ml IIRC and specified it as lifetime fill, thus no drain plug. There are also theories of incorrectly shimmed bearings but I cannot say if that's true.

Around 2015, could be late 14 could be 16, BMw changed the final drive in a few ways:

1. Added a vent
2. Added a drain plug
3. Added a 12k service interval
4. Lowered the fill spec during a service full to 180ml

I do not think all these changes happened at once, I believe they were irritative as BMW tried to solve the drive failure issues.

Bottom line is, there is a higher failure rate of 2013 WET HEAD ENGINED final drives vs at the very least 2016 and newer.

Not all final drives fail.

Any year BMW can and does have final drive failures.

Exact percentage is unknown. Probably lower then the internet makes it seem, but higher than it should be when compared to a Honda or Yamaha.

There are easy tests to know if the bike you are looking at has a currently good final drive and if it was services correctly.
 

igneouss

Premier Member
#5
2013 and 2014 final drives had a higher failure rate than pre 2013 or post 2014 as BMW made changes with the 2013 year and again in 2015 or there about.
Marc, can you speculate about absolute values? The bike in question is a 2013. I get the impression that at worst it's a small percentage of bikes but I have no idea. What I can say: there is no discernable play in the wheel when I grab it at 3 and 9, and at 6 and 12 while on the center stand. There are no visible leaks. Has anyone added a vent and drain to one of these?


Some failures were catastrophic and well documented, some, will have simple to fix blown seals from too much oil and no vent.

In 2013 BMW came out with the new final drive with the wet head motor which specified a higher oil quantity 220ml IIRC and specified it as lifetime fill, thus no drain plug. There are also theories of incorrectly shimmed bearings but I cannot say if that's true.

Around 2015, could be late 14 could be 16, BMw changed the final drive in a few ways:

1. Added a vent
2. Added a drain plug
3. Added a 12k service interval
4. Lowered the fill spec during a service full to 180ml

I do not think all these changes happened at once, I believe they were irritative as BMW tried to solve the drive failure issues.

Bottom line is, there is a higher failure rate of 2013 WET HEAD ENGINED final drives vs at the very least 2016 and newer.

Not all final drives fail.

Any year BMW can and does have final drive failures.

Exact percentage is unknown. Probably lower then the internet makes it seem, but higher than it should be when compared to a Honda or Yamaha.

There are easy tests to know if the bike you are looking at has a currently good final drive and if it was services correctly.
 

Marc11

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#6
How many miles on the bike?

Hard to speculate on absolute values, no matter what number I say will be wrong. But consider BMW doesn't sell a lot of bikes here in the USA, and although the GS is a top seller we are talking thousands per year, not tens of thousands, so assuming 6000 2013 GS wet heads were sold in the USA, if 10 percent failed, which would be a very high number percentage wise, that's only 600 bikes.

So numbers when we talk small quantities like BMW sell are a bit skewed.

Me, I'd buy a higher mileage 2013/2014 before a low mileage one. Most failures occured early in life. Of course higher mileage bikes bring about driveshaft concerns, but that is a different thread.

In thinking, even a low mileage 2013, if it was a killer deal I'd consider it and just save a bit for a potential FD replacement.
 

Shawn K

Professional Cat Confuser
Premier Member
#7
The question is "from what year forward is the final drive not likely to fail?
I have a less forgiving view of this issue.

I spent 4 years working at a former inbound logistics provider for one of the BMW manufacturing plants. For two of those years, I was in the plant every day, right up to the production line (close enough to touch). I've been to several dozen of their OEM suppliers, and I've had many a conversation about - and seen firsthand - who makes their parts, how they're made, and which other companies those OEM's supply.

BMW markets themselves as a premium brand. They charge premium prices, too. They sell you on a notion that their motorcycles are built from superior materials, by superior engineers.

In my years of experience dealing directly with BMW and their OEM suppliers, I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of superiority that justifies the premium pricing.

BMW has a known issue with final drives. People can debate the number of bikes affected, but the issue is that it shouldn't be a problem to begin with. A company that markets itself as premium, superior technology, yet has a near decade-long problem with one of the most basic parts of their motorcycles is, in my opinion, a gross reflection of their alleged superiority.

I think a lot of people (namely BMW owners) are willing to overlook this because no one wants to admit that they paid a premium price for a non-premium product.

Purchase whatever bike you prefer, but if you want the kind of reliability in your next bike that you've had with your current bike, it is my considered opinion that you stick with a Japanese manufacturer, not a European one. The fine folks at JD Power and Associates have statistics on the matter as well.

One man's opinion. But it's based on experience and insight that most people don't have, so I think it's a pretty well-informed opinion.
 
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igneouss

Premier Member
#8
Shawn, I agree to a point. Looking at the IBR finisher lists over the years you can see a period when BMW became a less well favored ride (fewer finishes, lower finishes, more DNFs, fewer entries). You can also see a more recent return to dominance. It seems to me that BMW really screwed up badly both with the error and the followup. But it also seems to be the case that they have gotten past the error and now (again) make good bikes.

As you note, anyone can look at things like Consumers Reports and see clearly that BMW is not the most problem free (last I looked I thing it was Yamaha).

I would also note that that there are quite a few less tangible things that matter on a bike. Comfort, adjustability, ease of maintenance... I own a Goldwing, changing the airfilter is a rediculous nightmare that involves taking half the bike apart.... But it runs like a top. Engineering is more than mechanical reliability.
 

igneouss

Premier Member
#9
Get this... The bike is basically new. A very wealthy guy bought a pair of them for a trip in 2013. Never happened. Sat for 8 years. Eventually he sold them to a small local independent dealer. The dealer has one of two left. One of the dealer employees rode it a bit. It has about 1400 miles on it...

How many miles on the bike?

Hard to speculate on absolute values, no matter what number I say will be wrong. But consider BMW doesn't sell a lot of bikes here in the USA, and although the GS is a top seller we are talking thousands per year, not tens of thousands, so assuming 6000 2013 GS wet heads were sold in the USA, if 10 percent failed, which would be a very high number percentage wise, that's only 600 bikes.

So numbers when we talk small quantities like BMW sell are a bit skewed.

Me, I'd buy a higher mileage 2013/2014 before a low mileage one. Most failures occured early in life. Of course higher mileage bikes bring about driveshaft concerns, but that is a different thread.

In thinking, even a low mileage 2013, if it was a killer deal I'd consider it and just save a bit for a potential FD replacement.
 

Vlad

Premier Member
#10
BMW made 2 GSA models in 2013. The 90th anniversary twin cam, the last of them, and the first of the water cooled models. If you have a 90th anniversary twin cam with 1400 miles on it then color me jealous, that's a lovely motorcycle.

The final drive unit is serviceable just as it was in 2012,11 and 10. Both fill and drain plugs. It takes 180 ml of oil, put more in and you will have problems. BMW spec a 20000 kilometer service interval but I have always changed mine at 10000. As I said in my earlier post its not much oil and it does a lot of work.
It takes literally 15 min to change it and clean oil is good oil. Some folk just cant get their head around how little oil goes in there, say in comparison to your Gl1800 which takes approx 500 ml. I have seen 400 ml come out of a GSA FD just recently on a bike a mate bought 2nd hand. Started leaking oil profusely in the middle of a run and we drained it on the side of the road. Put in more oil than necessary and you will eventually blow the main oil seal. After that things can get messy.

Personally, if you like the bike then buy it, service everything including the brake fluid and ride it, they are sweet bikes. Then service the diff everytime you do the engine oil. There was a post relating to the twin cam models around here recently and if memory serves Dave has an R model of the same year with 280000 miles on it, perhaps you could have a yarn to him about it.

Here is a pic of my 2013 anniversary model, its my 5th GS and undoubtedly the best one. It has 178000 kilometers on it and functions as expected, has the original final drive and I've had no issues with it. In case you were wondering, I havent had a diff failure on any of them.

IMG_4718.JPG
 
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igneouss

Premier Member
#11
Scott, thanks for the reassurance. It has amazed me that after all these years, simply asking and googling 'bmw FD issues' could generate so much contradictory info. Edless unresolved debates about causes and rates of failures, all colored by understandably bitter owners who suffered through BMWs less than stellar responses...

Oh, and yes, it's a '90th aniversery model' *grin*

BMW made 2 GSA models in 2013. The 90th anniversary twin cam, the last of them, and the first of the water cooled models. If you have a 90th anniversary twin cam with 1400 miles on it then color me jealous, that's a lovely motorcycle.

The final drive unit is serviceable just as it was in 2012,11 and 10. Both fill and drain plugs. It takes 180 ml of oil, put more in and you will have problems. BMW spec a 20000 kilometer service interval but I have always changed mine at 10000. As I said in my earlier post its not much oil and it does a lot of work.
It takes literally 15 min to change it and clean oil is good oil. Some folk just cant get their head around how little oil goes in there, say in comparison to your Gl1800 which takes approx 500 ml. I have seen 400 ml come out of a GSA FD just recently on a bike a mate bought 2nd hand. Started leaking oil profusely in the middle of a run and we drained it on the side of the road. Put in more oil than necessary and you will eventually blow the main oil seal. After that things can get messy.

Personally, if you like the bike then buy it, service everything including the brake fluid and ride it, they are sweet bikes. Then service the diff everytime you do the engine oil. There was a post relating to the twin cam models around here recently and if memory serves Dave has an R model of the same year with 280000 miles on it, perhaps you could have a yarn to him about it.

Here is a pic of my 2013 anniversary model, its my 5th GS and undoubtedly the best one. It has 178000 kilometers on it and functions as expected, has the original final drive and I've had no issues with it. In case you were wondering, I havent had a diff failure on any of them.

View attachment 6396
 

Marc11

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#12
Honestly speaking for myself, I would not buy a 7-8 year old bike with such low miles unless it was something very special and or I was fully prepared to replace some expensive parts.

Final drive aside there are other parts of modern BMWs that don't do well unattended too, ABS pump and switch gear come to mind, plus from my many BMWs owned, a lot and I mean A LOT is fixed under warranty in the first 36k miles.

For every BMW love story there is a horror story, I could tell you things that have happened to my low mileage BMWs that would make you cringe....and yet I still buy, own and ride them, says something about BMW...or me!

That bike could be a gem, but earmark some cash incase it need some tlc from sitting unloved.

Just my opinion, many may and will disagree, but that is of course thier opinion and as valid as mine.
 

igneouss

Premier Member
#13
Marc and Scott et al.
I bought the bike a few hours ago. I had a long and informative chat with a BMW service rep. Mostly about things that can be problematic for bikes that sit unused for long periods. The original owner seems to have done right when storing the bike as the fuel pump and injectors act like they should. The brake fluid was changed this year which seems to be about all that can be done for the ABS pump. Best advice I have heard, hear and elsewhere, was to change the FD fluid every 10K or so and be careful to only use the correct amount.

The bike (which I do not have yet) will go to a good dealer for a once over and it's "run in check"...LOL
 

CB650F

Premier Member
#14
I agree with Marc here. Nothing is worse for a vehicle than to leave it in the garage. But as long as the BMW dealership gives it a good bill of health, you should be okay. It sounds like the original owner kept up on maintenance despite never riding it.
 

Marc11

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#15
Marc and Scott et al.
I bought the bike a few hours ago. I had a long and informative chat with a BMW service rep. Mostly about things that can be problematic for bikes that sit unused for long periods. The original owner seems to have done right when storing the bike as the fuel pump and injectors act like they should. The brake fluid was changed this year which seems to be about all that can be done for the ABS pump. Best advice I have heard, hear and elsewhere, was to change the FD fluid every 10K or so and be careful to only use the correct amount.

The bike (which I do not have yet) will go to a good dealer for a once over and it's "run in check"...LOL
Great, best of luck!!
 

Dann

Active Member
#16
I sold my 07 RT with 186,000km on it and never had an issue with the FD
My rear U-Joint broke at 125000km though and had to replace the drive shaft. (No dammage to the FD)
Make sure the rear rubber boot is well seated
 

igneouss

Premier Member
#17
Daniel,
Did your u-joint fail due to water getting past the boot? I've noted that people who talk about lubing the splines also talk about carefully greasing and re-seating the boot. Lots to learn...

I sold my 07 RT with 186,000km on it and never had an issue with the FD
My rear U-Joint broke at 125000km though and had to replace the drive shaft. (No dammage to the FD)
Make sure the rear rubber boot is well seated
 

Dann

Active Member
#18
Daniel,
Did your u-joint fail due to water getting past the boot? I've noted that people who talk about lubing the splines also talk about carefully greasing and re-seating the boot. Lots to learn...
Looks like it, but I'm not so sure. Could have been humidity build up. My FD spline was lubed at every FD oil change. The U-joint cannot be greased. Maybe I should have greased an reseated the boot more carefully.
 

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Ahamay

The Joker
IBA Member
#19
It seems that only the later model GS has FD problems I had An 07 1200 GS FD broke at 61,000 miles the average failure distance 50,000-60,000 miles the lack of breather would cause the oil to expand and blow the seal where the wheel bolts on spraying oil on the disc and tyre this was the sealed for life version with no breather or drain plug so got a new FD with the breather and fill/drain plugs that will be £1100 sir:eek: and change the gearbox/final drive oil yearly
Before that I had an 1100 GS for eight years with no problems, there is an engineer in England 'Overland & Classic' who is rebuilding 1100-1150 FDs with 100,000 miles plus.
All the other bike manufactures who use shaft drive don't seem to have these problems but BMW's have been built by accountants not engineers for years now.
 

DrNeo

Premier Member
#20
I've had to replace my final drive and shaft on my 2007 R1200RT with ~93k miles.

I did a rather long, (hopefully) thorough write up on the Hexhead/Camhead shaft and final drives over on the BMWMOA website. There are a lot of myths and fallacies floating about - like the oil pressure.

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthrea...e-Hexhead-Camhead-Final-Drive-and-Shaft-Drive

Basically - if they aren't maintained, they will wear out...