Question - multiple certificates on a single ride

spanner

Well-Known Member
#1
I am looking at doing the SS2000 MILES in 24 [ Edit: 48] hour ride on the way to Renmark in April.

Am I allowed to also claim a SS2000K and a SS1600K on the same trip?

So in the end I will have:
SS2000Miles in 48 hours
SS2000K in 24 hours
SS1600K in 24 hours.

Is this legit OR is it 'double dipping'??
 
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OX-34

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#2
I am looking at doing the SS2000 MILES in 24 hour.
2000 miles in 24 hours? Typo?

If it is truly a SS2000 MILES in 24 hours then both the SS2000K and SS1600K are double dipping as all three rides are inside the SAME 24 hours.


Just checking that we're really talking about 2000 miles in 48 hours here...

To complete a SS2000M ride you must , by definition, have completed a SS1600K (SS1000M) in one or both of the days. Typically that may be two SS1600s back to back, but riding eg 1700km one day and 1500km the next is sufficient for a SS2000M. However, it seems you are riding one day longer than the other in order to complete a SS2000K so maybe its not double dipping for that one.

I think the SS1600K (=SS1000M), would be redundant if you claim the SS2000M (48hr).

So my take is you claim one of the following:
A - SS2000K plus SS1600K; or
B - SS2000MILE plus SS2000K; or
C - just the SS2000MILE.
 

spanner

Well-Known Member
#3
2000 miles in 24 hours? Typo?

If it is truly a SS2000 MILES in 24 hours then both the SS2000K and SS1600K are double dipping as all three rides are inside the SAME 24 hours.


Just checking that we're really talking about 2000 miles in 48 hours here...

To complete a SS2000M ride you must , by definition, have completed a SS1600K (SS1000M) in one or both of the days. Typically that may be two SS1600s back to back, but riding eg 1700km one day and 1500km the next is sufficient for a SS2000M. However, it seems you are riding one day longer than the other in order to complete a SS2000K so maybe its not double dipping for that one.

I think the SS1600K (=SS1000M), would be redundant if you claim the SS2000M (48hr).

So my take is you claim one of the following:
A - SS2000K plus SS1600K; or
B - SS2000MILE plus SS2000K; or
C - just the SS2000MILE.

oh my god!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

yes ..... 48 hours!!!!!!! :p
 

Ira

Staff member
Premier Member
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
IBR Staff
#4
I am looking at doing the SS2000 MILES in 24 [ Edit: 48] hour ride on the way to Renmark in April.

Am I allowed to also claim a SS2000K and a SS1600K on the same trip?

So in the end I will have:
SS2000Miles in 48 hours
SS2000K in 24 hours
SS1600K in 24 hours.

Is this legit OR is it 'double dipping'??
The basic rule for multiple certificates on the same ride is that if one ride by definition is completed within another, we only issue one certificate. For example, everyone who completes an SS2000K has by definition completed an SS1600K. So we would issue one or the other, but not both. On the other hand, it's possible to complete a Saddlesore 2000 (miles) without necessarily completing an SS2000K or SS1600K. So you could complete that ride, along with one of the other two.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
 

OX-34

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#5
...........On the other hand, it's possible to complete a Saddlesore 2000 (miles) without necessarily completing an SS2000K or SS1600K.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
I'd say its impossible to complete a SS2000M without completing a SS1600K, even if it goes unclaimed.
 

Ira

Staff member
Premier Member
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
IBR Staff
#6
I'd say its impossible to complete a SS2000M without completing a SS1600K, even if it goes unclaimed.
I stand corrected - you're right. If one finishes the first 1610km in 25 hours and the second in 23 hours.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
 

Tele

Premier Member
#7
I completed a ride with Wombattle in September 2013 when I achieved the following:
(a) 1600k in < 24hrs finishing at Port Augusta. Then continued for another 400k (to Broken Hill) to achieve 2000k in 24hrs.
(b) Sleep a few hours in Broken Hill before riding to Cobar to achieve 2500k in 36 hours.
(c) Then continue on back to Newcastle to achieve 2000 miles in less than 48hrs.

I have four certificates from the IBA to celebrate this ride. All submitted with paperwork and signed by Mike Kneebone.
1. SS1600k in 24
2. SS2000k in 24
3. BB2500k in 36
4. SS2000M in 48.

So, from my experience, Yes you can claim multiple rides nested within one large ride (assuming each is correctly documented and proven).
 

OX-34

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#8
The question was about double dipping Tele, not whether you can be certified.

1. The initial SS1600 is redundant - meaningless - by definition, because within the same 24 hour window you completed a SS2000K. It is impossible to ride a SS2000K without superseding the SS1600K. I'm calling that one double dipping, but only that one.
2. The SS2000K stands as a great ride - well done.
3. The BB2500K is completely legit, because it is not necessary, by definition, to complete EITHER a SS1600K OR SS2000K when completing a BB2500K. You may, for example, do 1500km in the first 24 hours, then another 1000km in the last 12 hours.
4. The SS2000M/48 is of course legit. What the SS2000M also is, is another ride that makes the initial SS1600K meaningless, because as discussed above a SS2000M cannot be ridden without completing at least one SS1600K - by definition.


To go crazy with this double dipping, you could complete a ride Sydney to Perth (4000km) in say 47 hours, then turn around and complete the return leg (4000km) in 47 hours for a total of 94 hours.

I would call that a 100CCC GOLD.

But you could submit a bunch of SS1600Ks; 2x SS2000K for the over leg and 2x 2000K for the return; throw in a few BB2500Ks - yeah three sounds good - maybe a BB2500K GOLD or two if the conditions are right, then again a couple of BB1500M GOLDSs if the fuel stops weren't quite right - what the hell, submit both kinds; 2 x 50CC; a couple of SS3000Ks; SS4000K - hold on, make that 2 of those; a SS6000K; SS8000K; hang on, lets get back to imperial with a SS4000Mile ; SS5000Mile; another handful of SS1000MILES; 2x SS2000MILES. Oops, I forgot a couple SS3000K GOLDs, lets say 2 of those and also a couple of SS4000K GOLDS.

I would just call that ride a 100CCC GOLD.

Edit: I have double dipped, but not by definition, on special rides eg Centreline 24 completed within a 50CC North/South. Or the first ever SS3000K GOLD nested within a SS3000M.
However, I once completed a long ride called the Australia Southern Cross.Nested within it, but left unsubmitted were a couple of 50CCs, a Trans Australia, maybe four SS2000s, 8 x SS1600s, a BB2500K or 2 or 3, maybe 5 because I deemed them double dipping.
 
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Grey Gentry

Premier Member
#9
I've completed a 50CCGold, an SS2000 and a BB2500G two up, as they were the goals, they were the only rides submitted.
I could have had 2xSS1600,an SS2000, and a BB2500/36 on the 50CC, but I consider they were double dipping, as they were not the goal.
I did get an SS1600, and SS2000 paperwork signed off on the BB2500G, just in case there was some hiccup with the over all goal, but they were never submitted.
 

Ira

Staff member
Premier Member
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
IBR Staff
#10
This issue has been discussed for many, many years. There are at least three schools of thought on the matter.

At one extreme are the folks that argue for "one ride, one certificate". At the other end are those who want, for whatever purpose, to pile on every single certificate they can possibly think of ( folks in this camp have sometimes been disparaged with the tag of "certificate whore"). And there is also a middle ground, where under certain circumstances multiple certificates are acceptable. Over the years, the discussion has taken on the characteristics of religious argument.

So what is the official position of the Iron Butt Association? As it states in the preface to the Bun Burner GOLD fee schedule,

Please note that we will only issue a certification for the highest
ride level achieved. For example, everyone that has completed a
Bun Burner Gold, by definition has completed the SaddleSore 1000
and we will not issue a SaddleSore 1000 certificate for this same ride.

Of course, there are many other ride combinations that are also consistent with this. And conversely, there are many ride combinations where one ride by definition is not completed within another. For example, it's possible to complete a Bun Burner 1500 (1500 miles in 36 hours) without necessarily completing a Saddlesore 1000 (e.g., one completes the first 1000 miles in 25 hours but the 1500 miles in 36 hours). So one could argue that completing both on the same ride takes more effort than just completing the longer ride, and therefore should be recognized.

Because of the myriad of permutations and combinations possible on long rides, there have undoubtedly been cases where we have inadvertently broken our own rule (note my mis-analysis of a fairly simple case earlier in the discussion). So the fact that we have done it in some cases should not be taken as official support for doing so - we're human, too! :)

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
 

spanner

Well-Known Member
#12
cheers.

Whilst I don want to be known as a certificate whore I do like to have those that are available .

I also don't like spending big bucks on redundant certificates to be honest. It was more of a hypothetical.

I will do as Grey Gentry suggested though and have each of the segments signed off to ensure I get 'something' should a similar issue happen to me as my recent mechanical failure on my last ss2500M attempt. If I had done that I would have received at least a ss2000K.

lessons learned and all that stuff!
 

Gatey

Premier Member
IBA Member
#13
There is nothing wrong in checking off each stage along the way spanner and I know that as a game plan then for many riders its standard practice. At some point for many the energy to mark the end of each stage becomes secondary as the confidende in the ride on that occasion grows. After all we want many things from a long ride and as often happens the end target does...even after all the between stages are filled and signed...become the main focus as it always was. It might be that at the conclusion of the successful ride you might not even send the paperwork away, confident that you have achieved your target.
For myself Ive a good few rides documented but I just did not get around to sending them of even though they represent physical, mental financial and equipment costs that in the ride I was desperate to have the stage strategy up my sleeve just in case.
I probably still fall into the mid section mind set but I'm drifting towards the certificates that mark a personal milestone now.
Its always different for every rider on any other day of the week at any season of the year.
Go enjoy your ride mate.
 

Wombattle

Well-Known Member
#14
I completed a ride with Wombattle ....

I have four certificates from the IBA to celebrate this ride. All submitted with paperwork and signed by Mike Kneebone.
1. SS1600k in 24
2. SS2000k in 24
3. BB2500k in 36
4. SS2000M in 48.

So, from my experience, Yes you can claim multiple rides nested within one large ride (assuming each is correctly documented and proven).
That was a fun ride Tele, even when you made me ride an extra 20k's to Swansea because the speedo on your BMW read short at the end! Remember the bikies at the Hill? And the sadly missed bloke on the verandah of the Wilmington Hotel as we rode through? :) To be fair though, I didn't claim an SS1600K. I'm with OX and Ira on that one, redundant within a 2000K. Good on you for getting it through though.