Road Policing?

GarminDave

Ex-Arkwright
Premier Member
#1
Hi Guys,

I'd appreciate your input as I have mixed feelings.

I think driving, riding and even cycling are a privilege and require skills that need to be learned and practised. Many people who use the roads are under the impression it is their right and the skills required were all learned at driving school and once the DVLA test is passed you need never worry again about the Highway Code or any sort of advanced learning let alone bother to concentrate on the job in hand.

I had the pleasure in my formative years of getting sound advise from Traffic Police Officers, however, our governments decided that technology and HATO's are the way forward (hell they even try to convince us that Smart Motorways are safe!).

So my question is how do you feel about reporting less than best practice demonstrations of being a prat?

I did myself with this video:

HERE

The outcome was the driver was prosecuted for Careless Driving.
 

JohnR

Mr. QR code
IBA Member
#2
I did very similar things in my youth, didn't see any harm in it especially since Police Motorcyclists could be seen doing the very same maneuvers on any day of the week.

Let he who is without sin...
 

Shawn K

Professional Cat Confuser
Premier Member
#3
Philosophically, I think there are questions here about whether I'd want to live in a world of people deputizing themselves as Tattletales of the State.

In this particular case, it could be interpreted that the guy was trying to show you courtesy and not crowd you out as you approached those structures in the road at the curve. He could have looked at the situation and decided that since there were no other vehicles in the area, the safest and cleanest way to keep moving and respect you as well would be to go around and rejoin quickly. He goes on your way, and you go on yours.

That's one man's observations, and I could ultimately be wrong. I'm imagining that maybe there was another option besides him being a total prat. Maybe he did the wrong thing in accordance with the law, but he did it for a reason of courtesy toward you. Who knows? Only the other driver knows.

I guess my larger question is, why did you feel the need to immediately assume the role of Deputy Tattletale of the State? I don't see that you were in any imminent danger, so from my seat in the bleacher it looks like you turned him in for no other reason than you just didn't like it.

Is that the kind of world you want to live in? Where ordinary citizens are filming you without your knowledge and turning you into the police for any slight, perceived or otherwise?

From where I sit, it's a larger question of motive and philosophy. This video gave me the impression that the person being the prat was not the guy in the car.

(And if my response angered you, please remember that you put the question out for feedback.)
 
#4
had to watch it several times before i got my head round the why do it question. 1st point the guys a prat for doing it it isn't a safe maneuver and its against the law.
for many years i was closely involved safety/error management. And one of the principles is we all make errors or don't follow the rules whether these are done deliberately or by accident usually takes an investigation to determine the term pilot error is often used but in itself doesn't address the cause.
one of the first questions usually is did the person set out deliberately to do this or was it some sort of error? the video does not answer that question. I do know from the video that the person went to overtake then broke the highway code a bad decision followed by another bad decision, why we make bad decisions we could discuss for hours, but again there could be factors we are unaware of. Part of my previous life was teaching people how to recognize the factors that effect decision making and how to avoid poor decisions.
So back to the question as a one off incident no i would not report it (benefit of the doubt) if it was done repeatedly and potentially dangerous then maybe
 

Vlad

Premier Member
#6
Over hear in the antipodes it’s difficult to go anywhere without being filmed, traffic cams ,red light cams ,safety cams, mobile speed cams any where any time, atm cams ,shopping centre cams and the list goes on but you get my point. If Joe Public gets in in the act as well I see no positive outcome in fact quite the opposite.
I’d give you the same advice my mother gave me when I was a boy,
“Careful what you wish for”
 

bmbob

IBA Member
#8
Hi All
Thanks for sharing that clip with us Dave.
Interesting to read all the replies from John R, Shawn K, Stig , Stephen, Vlad, which shows why we have judges.
Yes the car broke the law, and the court agreed, but did he do it because he is a prat, or as Shawn K says he was giving you space, only he knows.
Would I have reported him.......I don't have any cameras on my helmet so don't have that dilemma.
But it's lovely to see the forum being used......to chat.
Stay safe
Regards Bob
ps what is/are HATO's
 

Quill4

Brit Butt Rallymaster
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
#9
I found myself admiring the skill and expertise of the car driver, just in the same way that I am in awe of hooded cyclists who ride no-handed on pavements, wearing earbuds, texting, but still have the multi-tasking skills to shout out "F*** off out the way you old c***". As an aside, I submitted an FOI asking how many tickets had been issued for cycling on the pavement in the town/city where I live, over the past five years. The answer was just one. For clarity, cycling on pavements is prohibited, as detailed in Rule 64 of the highway code.
 

GarminDave

Ex-Arkwright
Premier Member
#10
"ps what is/are HATO's"

Highway Agency Traffic Officer

They have very limited power, about the same as the Public, but they patrol our motorways mainly to help stranded motorists and put in closures etc.
 

GarminDave

Ex-Arkwright
Premier Member
#11
My spin on all the above is:

1. I like to teach good road skills
2. I assume no one bothers with advance driving/riding techniques
3. If people do daft things on the road the only time they will learn safer skills is if they are told or involved it an RTI (Road Traffic Incident)
4. I feel very vulnerable as a cyclist and passing at refugees is a big scare as one tone of 30mph metal brushes past very close
5. With virtually no traffic police available for education getting a Carless Driving notice with an option to attend training rather than points is a good educational tool.
6. I will continue with my Dash Cams on cycle, motorcycle and car in my bid to improve Road Safety
7. I will ride/drive/cycle as if I'm always on someone's camera SLAP (Safe/Legal/Advantageous/Perception)

As before thanks for all your input, I still have the stigma of 'being a grass' but see no viable alternate as every cycle ride on our roads I see my fellow road users not exercising best practice. My acid test is "Would I do that if I were being followed by a Traffic Officer?"

Take care out there its a jungle.
 

Ahamay

The Joker
IBA Member
#12
We all see examples of bad driving wrong side of traffic island on a blind bend is an absolute offence same as jumping a red light.
I understand peoples reluctance to 'grass' someone up but if you were coming the other way on you bike and having to take avoiding action on a wet road would you be so reluctant then?
 

Stephen!

Flivver Flyer
Premier Member
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
#13
The answer was just one. For clarity, cycling on pavements is prohibited, as detailed in Rule 64 of the highway code.
So is riding a cycle without "reasonable consideration for other persons using the road". I am no barrister, but were I sitting on a jury seeing video evidence of someone dawdling along at 15kph while traffic sits behind them, surely I would find them gulty of this offence.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/29
 

Shawn K

Professional Cat Confuser
Premier Member
#14
I tend to have a dim view of bicyclists on public roads due to my experience with them over here. They're the first to scream "SHARE THE ROAD!" at anyone not going a block around them, but won't hesitate to ride 3-wide down a lane of traffic and hold up all motorized traffic (while going half the speed limit or less). Bicyclists in this area (especially the ones who like to dress up like a Tour de France peloton) have a strong predilection for being the most self-focused and one-sided mentality people on the road. It's especially bad on weekends, and they're becoming quite confrontational in certain riding areas around here.

Which is why I looked at Dave's video and thought "maybe he's just trying to get around you without being a prat, since you are blocking traffic".

It doesn't seem to matter, though. Dave asked for opinion about his video, he was met with near unanimous consent against it, and his response was essentially "Thanks for your feedback... I'm going to keep doing it anyway." It seems the end of debate at that point.
 

EricV

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#15
I bicycle commuted for years, going to work at 11pm for graveyard shift, (12a-7a), and riding home in heavy morning traffic. 20km each way. Rain or shine, snow or what ever. I've encountered many bad drivers and drunks, not to mention simply oblivious ones.

In my opinion, the driver was doing his best to give you space. Clearly you feel he should have waited until you cleared the corner and gone around you then. You were obstructing the flow of traffic. And put bluntly, riding like a wanker, well to the right of the line when you had no need to do so.

Riding bicycles is much the same as riding motorcycles. You are solely responsible for your safety. Not the other road users. And on a bicycle, when you can manage the speed of traffic flow, you own the entire lane. When you can't, get over to the side and don't block traffic.

You created the conditions that caused the driver to go around you. He made a judgement call to do so then. Not legal, but like all road users, you choose what makes sense at the moment and in view of other vehicles present or not.

While I'm in the mood to give free advice, take the camera(s) off and remove your phone from your bike. You're RIDING, not pissing about playing film crew and vigilante. Or more on point, that's exactly what you're doing, playing vigilante. You'd be far better off paying more attention to your surroundings and traffic. Stop being a C***.
 

owl*

Rally Bonus checker
IBA Member
#16
Just my opinion:

You seemed to be riding at a reasonable speed and as near to the nearside as is practicable, given that there are drain holes etc to contend with.

Would I have gone round the keep left signs? - no, I wouldn't, not without blues & twos.

Would I have overtaken you close to your offside? - again, probably not. I would have cursed to myself and waited, and overtaken you on the left hand bend, assuming nothing obstructed my progress from the opposite direction.

Would I have reported the car driver? - no, most certainly I wouldn't. Even though he clearly broke the law, he didn't endanger you and it seemed to me like an act of revenge on your part.

The thought of car/bike cam amateur cops terrifies me and I think it's a sad fact of life that such a thing now exists.

Having said that, I would probably turn in footage if I filmed something truly dangerous and life threatening, which makes me a bit of a hypocrite..
 

Ian M

Well-Known Member
#17
Over hear in the antipodes it’s difficult to go anywhere without being filmed, traffic cams ,red light cams ,safety cams, mobile speed cams any where any time, atm cams ,shopping centre cams and the list goes on but you get my point. If Joe Public gets in in the act as well I see no positive outcome in fact quite the opposite.
I’d give you the same advice my mother gave me when I was a boy,
“Careful what you wish for”
I was on a risk assessment course some months ago.
One of the parameters we need to measure to calculate the level of acceptability of a risk is the number and value of targets passing the potential risk court/point
An example was given of a street in Sydney, the authorities know to the second how many people pass the point we were looking at.
I find that level of control/knowledge over a population disturbing. Not somewhere I’d like to live.
I guess you must get used to it?
 

Winglider

Ex-Wiinglider
IBA Member
#19
Just my opinion:

You seemed to be riding at a reasonable speed and as near to the nearside as is practicable, given that there are drain holes etc to contend with.

Would I have gone round the keep left signs? - no, I wouldn't, not without blues & twos.

Would I have overtaken you close to your offside? - again, probably not. I would have cursed to myself and waited, and overtaken you on the left hand bend, assuming nothing obstructed my progress from the opposite direction.

Would I have reported the car driver? - no, most certainly I wouldn't. Even though he clearly broke the law, he didn't endanger you and it seemed to me like an act of revenge on your part.

The thought of car/bike cam amateur cops terrifies me and I think it's a sad fact of life that such a thing now exists.

Having said that, I would probably turn in footage if I filmed something truly dangerous and life threatening, which makes me a bit of a hypocrite..
Totally agree Tom. When I took my advanced driving test I was to[d it was a big NO NO to go the wrong side of the bollards. But while working as a taxi driver in the city I saw it every week, even Double Decker buses doing it. Did I report them no. as long a thought it was safe.
Having watched Dave's video I am not sure whether the driver in the car driver was showing courtesy or being impatient.
I think maybe the latter as he would only of had to slow down a little,and sit behind you for 10 or 12 seconds before he got round the corner past the second set of bollards and then been able to overtaken safely if the road was clear.
But they decided to go the wrong side of the bollards. He did put himself on the wrong side of the wet road as he approached a bend with parked vehicles, and I guess the two sets of bollards were there to tell the drivers going in both directions to keep left. As Dave said "Would I do that if I were being followed by a Traffic Officer?" the answer would be no.
Would I report them depends on the circumstances.
 

MarkG

Premier Member
#20
Watching the video it is everyday traffic and quite tame for here I expect it to happen all the time. Mostly at a lot higher speeds like 80 mph in a 65 mph speed zone on the freeway. Traffic ignores the signs the hotter the temperature. The car was courteous and gave you plenty of room which is a lot more than can usually be expected with the wet road. Based on the tape it appears you were impeading traffic flow justifying the car to go around. Unless I have been wrecked or saw somebody else wrecked, knowing what a dispatcher is going to ask I wouldn't report it for the following reasons.

1. Where are you? Good question since I'm from out of town and probably don't know the area. Even if you know the area can you automatically tell somebody the exact address where you are located?
2. Description of the vehicle including make, model, color, direction of travel, etc. To be honest I don't recognize half the cars on the road.
3. Was there an accident, are you hurt? Well no, then I can guarantee this call will be reduced to a priority three which means they will get around to it eventually because there are higher priority calls holding.
4. The odds of a patrol unit being anywhere near you are slim to none. Most of them are already on a call somewhere else. That is the reason people do 55 mph in a 45 mph speed zone on residential streets. Even if there is someone available by the time a patrol unit gets there the vehicle is long gone.
5. The police did not see it therefore it did not happen. The whole thing is your word against the other guy. Besides in this area they would have to arrest almost everybody for bad driving, cops included. Heads down with the camera implies distracted driving, too.
6. Road rage being what it is anymore the last thing I'm going to do is confront somebody when I'm on a motorcycle. Several thousand pounds of metal against me, I lose.
7. Eventually the cops will catch the offender if it is a big enough mistake.

Drive defensively, stay with the traffic, always believe nobody saw you, nobody cares. After all they were in a hurry. The only reason for the camera is after the fact, and that is to say how can I avoid this happening to me again.