Road Policing?

Stephen!

Flivver Flyer
Premier Member
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
#21
Riding bicycles is much the same as riding motorcycles. You are solely responsible for your safety. Not the other road users.
There are those in this very thread who believe and have publicly stated in other threads that when they are on their motorcycle their safety is every other road user's responsibility, not their own... :rolleyes:
 

JON12A

IBAUK's retired Shop Keeper
Premier Member
IBA Member
#22
I am no barrister, but were I sitting on a jury seeing video evidence of someone dawdling along at 15kph while traffic sits behind them, surely I would find them gulty of this offence
Don't forget Dave's a very very old man and in his lucid moments a very nice man !.
So go easy on him he just probably forgot to take his Sanatogen . Keep pedalling Dave. :)
 

EricV

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#27
There are those in this very thread who believe and have publicly stated in other threads that when they are on their motorcycle their safety is every other road user's responsibility, not their own... :rolleyes:
I honestly wasn't sure if that prior bit you speak of was misguided drivel from an idiot, or a sad attempt at satire, so I didn't poke at it.

What happened to personal responsibility? @GarminDave - Stay safe, but just go to church more often when you feel the need to tattle on others.
 

SteveAikens

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#28
I just want to go on record as not going on record with my opinion of the op's - op.

As I have aged, I have learned how to use restraint.

For those of you who personally know me - I said I LEARNED how to use it - I didn't say I always could.

Translation: Keep your expectations low....:p
 

Crezz

Well-Known Member
#29
Hi Guys,

I'd appreciate your input as I have mixed feelings.

I think driving, riding and even cycling are a privilege and require skills that need to be learned and practised. Many people who use the roads are under the impression it is their right and the skills required were all learned at driving school and once the DVLA test is passed you need never worry again about the Highway Code or any sort of advanced learning let alone bother to concentrate on the job in hand.

I had the pleasure in my formative years of getting sound advise from Traffic Police Officers, however, our governments decided that technology and HATO's are the way forward (hell they even try to convince us that Smart Motorways are safe!).

So my question is how do you feel about reporting less than best practice demonstrations of being a prat?

I did myself with this video:

HERE

The outcome was the driver was prosecuted for Careless Driving.
Dave, just an observation. The DVLA are not the agency that decides if you have passed the test or not, it is the DVSA.
 

GarminDave

Ex-Arkwright
Premier Member
#31
Then why did you start this thread and ask for people's opinion?
Because I thought it had run it’s course and I understood the other views. It had also descended into name calling which I did not appreciate so rather than respond I decided not to.
So once again thanks for all the input which will influence my future actions.
 

EricV

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#32
My spin on all the above is:

1. I like to teach good road skills
2. I assume no one bothers with advance driving/riding techniques
3. If people do daft things on the road the only time they will learn safer skills is if they are told or involved it an RTI (Road Traffic Incident)
4. I feel very vulnerable as a cyclist and passing at refugees is a big scare as one tone of 30mph metal brushes past very close
5. With virtually no traffic police available for education getting a Carless Driving notice with an option to attend training rather than points is a good educational tool.
6. I will continue with my Dash Cams on cycle, motorcycle and car in my bid to improve Road Safety
7. I will ride/drive/cycle as if I'm always on someone's camera SLAP (Safe/Legal/Advantageous/Perception)

As before thanks for all your input, I still have the stigma of 'being a grass' but see no viable alternate as every cycle ride on our roads I see my fellow road users not exercising best practice. My acid test is "Would I do that if I were being followed by a Traffic Officer?"

Take care out there its a jungle.
I probably would not have responded to this thread again, but the above points to several issues.

1. Please tell me which organization hired you on to teach "good road skills"?
2. Your assumption is a blanket statement, only accurate to a portion of road users.
3. Please look in the mirror. Who is teaching you safer skills? More pointedly, what advanced road cycling course(s) have you taken?
4. Seek counseling and you may find empowerment in having the skills, knowledge and abilities to not put your self in harms way.
5. It is not the job of the traffic police to educate road users. It is also not their job to make final determination, that is the judge/magistrate's responsibility.
6. Again, who hired you on? Not your job. And when you create the situation that causes poor behavior, consider how often are you seeking to create that situation, Vs how often it's just happening? Or, is your 'normal' behavior actually creating these situations, which you then record and tattle on?
7. This is a victim's attitude. Understand that being safe isn't necessarily the same as being legal. Laws are general things not intended to apply to every single situation in life. The traffic police are expected to use their judgement, derived from training and experience, to make the decision to cite or not. Do you have this training and experience in traffic enforcement?

As a cyclist, what really stands out to me about your vid and your responses is that you imply that the overtaking is illegal and merits the citation, but neglect to mention how long that vehicle was behind you, waiting to overtake. The driver did not display angst or make abrupt moves, did not appear to make gestures or otherwise interact with you, only go around you. You should be bloody thrilled that he didn't overtake you in your lane inches from your elbow.

Your perspective seems to be that you do no harm and that you maintain a "holier than thou" attitude. As ShawnK mentioned, an attitude that is seen often from bicyclists behaving badly, yet crying out that others must give them room, when they make little or no effort to keep their slower traffic out of the way of other road users.

Because your comfort level as a cyclist is apparently low and you feel vulnerable, this does not excuse your actions. Cyclists are sharing the roadways with larger, faster vehicles that are largely impervious to damage from the cyclist. You would be a fool to rely on the behavior of others to keep you safe. It's YOUR job to keep you safe.

I watched the video again. At times your lane position is quite reasonable. At other times you are well into the road. Lane discipline is important for you so that other road users see you as predictable and don't worry that you're suddenly going to weave out into the roadway. On the line or to the left of the line when there is no dedicate bikeway lane. You are moving much slower than motorized traffic, don't assume you will hear them in time to move over. The behavior they see when approaching you in part dictates how they will react to you. Are you another hazard, and an unpredictable one, to manage? Or are you well and good to the side of the road, predictably following your line w/o weaving in and out of the roadway that can be safely overtaken w/o danger of harm to you?

In the US many states have foolishly passed laws and put up signs requiring motorized traffic to maintain 3 or 4 feet between the bicycles and their vehicle. I say foolishly because this ignores the FACT that bicycles are required by existing laws in the US to follow the same rules of the road as other road users. And more often than not, the roadway is not wide enough to allow a car/truck to pass a bicycle with a 3-4 foot margin w/o crossing the center line or moving out of their lane. This is compounded when the bicycle or group of cyclists is well into the roadway or riding abreast instead of single file.

Despite the issue that all road users are required to follow the same rules, traffic officers rarely cite bicyclists for poor behavior. Running a stop sign perhaps, but rarely the wide variety of other violations that a motor vehicle would instantly be stopped and cited for. I put this down mostly to training or lack thereof and the "low hanging fruit" concept of it simply being easier to cite the motor vehicles.

My daily commute path took me up a 1.6 km hill. The shortest alternate route would have added 20+ km to my route. My speed up this hill was often in the 8-25 km/h range. No bike lane. No shoulder. The fog line was literally painted at the very edge of the pavement and the pavement gave way abruptly to a ditch or brambles. Speed of traffic was posted at 70 kph, but often really moving closer to 90 kph.

I rode with my tires on the single fog line every day of my commute. Since commuters, like me, often take the same route and the same time every day, the other road users got to recognize me as I did some of them. After about a week of riding this path, most of the other vehicles would pass me w/o slowing down and giving me a foot or so of space between their car/truck and my elbow/bar end. I was much more pleased with this response than the ones that slowed to my pace and held up traffic, creating a new hazard for the other road users. Or the ones that swung out into the oncoming lane of traffic to overtake me. Oddly giving me more space than they would to another car, and again, creating a new hazard for other road users.

Over the years of riding this commute, on rare occasions I would have an opportunity to converse with the motorists that I shared that stretch of road with. Not once did someone insult me or complain about my behavior. Instead, I was often thanked for being well to the side of the road and not creating a hazard for them. Some would ask if there was a safer route I could take and I would explain the problem of doing so doubling my commute distance. Most understood that was more significant to a bicycle rider than to a motor vehicle user.

We share the road. We also share the responsibility of being a safe road user that doesn't create hazards for the other road users.
 

GarminDave

Ex-Arkwright
Premier Member
#33
I probably would not have responded to this thread again, but the above points to several issues.

1. Please tell me which organization hired you on to teach "good road skills"?

Institute of Advanced Motorists, National Observer
2. Your assumption is a blanket statement, only accurate to a portion of road users.

Yes, it is my assumption based upon the number I know who take advanced lessons.
3. Please look in the mirror. Who is teaching you safer skills? More pointedly, what advanced road cycling course(s) have you taken?

It is a key part of my learning to reflect on my actions, it is a reason I have recording equipment so I can learn from my errors. I have IAM and RoSPA Gold. I take some form of instruction at least three days a year for the last twenty years.
4. Seek counseling and you may find empowerment in having the skills, knowledge and abilities to not put your self in harms way.

I try to cycle on dedicated cycle ways, but it's not always possible and I think other road users would understand 'vulnerable road users' if they were in their shoes.
5. It is not the job of the traffic police to educate road users. It is also not their job to make final determination, that is the judge/magistrate's responsibility.
I disagree. Our local Traffic Officers get involved with our IAM club and see education as a key reducer in Road Traffic Accidents. Correct in that it is the judge who decides, whoever for such a minor infringement there is a fixed penalty or Driver Awareness Course on offer.
6. Again, who hired you on? Not your job. And when you create the situation that causes poor behavior, consider how often are you seeking to create that situation, Vs how often it's just happening? Or, is your 'normal' behavior actually creating these situations, which you then record and tattle on?

No one hired me. If I created the situation by cycling on the highway lawfully does it mean I can't use the road?
7. This is a victim's attitude. Understand that being safe isn't necessarily the same as being legal. Laws are general things not intended to apply to every single situation in life. The traffic police are expected to use their judgement, derived from training and experience, to make the decision to cite or not. Do you have this training and experience in traffic enforcement?

I see this as a Vulnerable Road Users attitude and one that will help me stay safe.
 

Stephen!

Flivver Flyer
Premier Member
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
#34
Best example of worst "adult" cyclidiocy can typically be found on the Blue Ridge Parkway. One time got stuck behind a group of four of these "adults" blocking the entire lane riding up a long steep curving hill doing about 3 mph. Of course, being the perfectly behaved motorcycle rider, I sat back there waiting for them to "share" the road... That was until I had a clear enough line of sight to see that nobody was coming the other way. Pulled out across the double-yellow line just far enough to clear the "adult" on the far left and scooted around them. Do you know the asswipe on the far left had the audacity to flip me off as we went by? :rolleyes:
 
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Shawn K

Professional Cat Confuser
Premier Member
#37
It is a key part of my learning to reflect on my actions, it is a reason I have recording equipment so I can learn from my errors.
Your video gives the impression that the reason you have recording equipment is so that you can tattle on people who displease you.
 

EricV

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#38
I was going to commend you for taking training... Until I read through their info. Let's just say I have a negative opinion of that organization now, when before I didn't have an opinion of the IAM.

RoSPA Gold Award winners have achieved a very high level of performance, demonstrating well developed occupational health and safety management systems and culture, outstanding control of risk and very low levels of error, harm and loss.
This explains much. Having worked in that field, I can see you overly focus on passing courses instead of learning to understand root causes.

Our local Traffic Officers get involved with our IAM club


I lack the knowledge of UK slang to appropriately respond to this. They are not there to teach the general public, they are there at the request of your club. Kudos to them for participating.

Dave, if you can take ONE thing away from our conversations, please take this one: YOU ARE NOT VULNERABLE. You have more of an ability to avoid other road users and take evasive action, are moving at a much slower speed make it easier to quickly change direction and have far less mass to move.

You have a misguided view. If you get hit by another road user, it's because you were not paying attention and didn't make an effort to avoid them when it was necessary. Just like riding motorcycles, part of our safety lies in predicting poor behavior and observing the 'tells' that heighten our need to focus on specific other road users that are displaying poor habits, thus being more likely to do something that could put us at risk.

You paint the picture that you go looking for things to report. I do not find that behavior to be a positive one for society.

You didn't create the situation by cycling on the roadway. You created the situation by doing so poorly. I do wish I could point you to a suitable course for training to ride bicycles on the roadway safely and appropriately, but I do not have the resources at hand to do so.

Good day Sir.
 

Shawn K

Professional Cat Confuser
Premier Member
#39
Best example of worst "adult" cyclidiocy can typically be found on the Blue Ridge Parkway. One time got stuck behind a group of four of these "adults" blocking the entire lane riding up a long steep curving hill doing about 3 mph. Of course being the perfectly behaved motorcycle rider, I sat back there waiting for them to "share" the road... That was until I had a clear enough line of sight to see that nobody was coming the other way. Pulled out across the double-yellow line just far enough to clear the "adult" on the far left and scooted around them. Do you know the asswipe on the far left had the audacity to flip me off as we went by? :rolleyes:
The same thing happens on stretches of Old 25 near where I live. I've quit riding around those parts for that very reason - self-righteous bicyclists who don't understand that the phrase "share the road" is a two-way street. And MAN are they hostile.

I guess I'll just come out and say it - I don't like dealing with bicyclists on the road. And I'm glad that I don't live anywhere near Garmin Dave, because he'd probably report me to the police for having my hands at 9:00 and 2:15, or for sneezing on a Tuesday.
 

Stephen!

Flivver Flyer
Premier Member
IBA Member
IBR Finisher
#40
Best example of worst "adult" cyclidiocy can typically be found on the Blue Ridge Parkway. One time got stuck behind a group of four of these "adults" blocking the entire lane riding up a long steep curving hill doing about 3 mph. Of course being the perfectly behaved motorcycle rider, I sat back there waiting for them to "share" the road... That was until I had a clear enough line of sight to see that nobody was coming the other way. Pulled out across the double-yellow line just far enough to clear the "adult" on the far left and scooted around them. Do you know the asswipe on the far left had the audacity to flip me off as we went by? :rolleyes:
To wit (photo from a BRP web site):


Funny thing is, the National Parks Service addresses this behavior directly:

"Bicycles must be ridden single file and well to the right-hand side of the road, except when passing or turning left."
 

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