100X miles to tight for a SS1K?

Rony6ble

Premier Member
#21
If your aim is to be certified at 1000 miles, finish your best estimated 1000 mile ride in a city with plenty of receipt options, obtain your 1000 mile receipt and end witness. Go 1 mile further and repeat. Repeat again multiple times until you get bored or run out of time. Send in your 1st set for verification. If its refused, you will be told the mileage. Using this as your guide, send in the appropriate set to get your 1000 mile verification. If I was to plan this I would use the minimum number of stops to get to my estimated 1000 miles to allow for the messing about at the end.
This is a great way to piss the verification guys off... I was thinking of submitting all of it and ask that they can use whatever fits the closest SS but this will take the fun out of it.
 

kwthom

=o&o>
Premier Member
IBA Member
#22
<...>I was thinking of submitting all of it and ask that they can use whatever fits the closest SS but this will take the fun out of it.
Not really.

Being in an urban environment get you to areas that - while monitoring your GPS - could get you right to a 100x.x miles point to grab that last cert.

Of course, the GPS I use only shows four digits. Thus mileage is in whole number increments only.
 

Rony6ble

Premier Member
#23
Not really.

Being in an urban environment get you to areas that - while monitoring your GPS - could get you right to a 100x.x miles point to grab that last cert.

Of course, the GPS I use only shows four digits. Thus mileage is in whole number increments only.
It is OK to monitor the GPS but this is what I don't know for sure how the final mileage works: sometimes Google Maps makes some weird routing to get to a gas station (my guess it is depending on the official address and not the real access (may have many) to the station. This could add some 'planned' miles but cut the riding (GPS) miles short. On the other hand, what if you make a small, but significant enough, mistake that will add more miles to the GPS that are not really needed in that particular route. In one of my last rides in Arizona (I need to tell you guys about that one, I was impressed when I got Mike's email - but that will be in another post but check a BB ride 03/25/16 on a C14) I took a wrong turn and road about 0.7 miles and turned around, that is 1.4 miles. If I follow the GPS mileage I would be short by 1.4 miles. I also have seen that Google does some strange U turns that you could easily avoid in real life.

Maybe during another BB I'll plan the 1,000.0 mile ride, but again, no fun. I would try this in a single ride, but this is when biker's advice gets interesting and I may be tempted to collect another couple of receipts...
 

JAVGuzzi

Premier Member
#24
Fact : I have several SS1K's that have been certified with less than 1,010 miles. But remember, it's your responsibility to prove you did at least 1K miles. Don't rely on your odometer, for sure.

BTW, I use Streets & Trips to plan my rides and S&T and my Garmin 2720 after the ride have always agreed within 1 mile.

I know Ira won't like this ............. 2% of 1,000 is 20 , but it looks like you don't need that much of a cushion if you have an accurate routing program to prove you will do over 1K miles. And as far as I know, the IBA has never said what it uses to verify the mileage of a route. I asked once about that, but didn't get an informative response. But I think I can rely on Streets & Trips to give me an accurate mileage. I feel about 5 miles is a plenty good cushion when using an accurate routing program. So far, no problem getting my rides certified.

Incidentally , after one of these SS1K rides, my Garmin 2720 trip meter read 1,008 miles, and my riding buddie's trip meter on his Can Am Spyder read 1,008 , too. He was Ward Blanchard ( RIP ) and on that ride he set the record for the oldest Rider to complete a SS1K at 89 years old. Ward passed this January.
 
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#25
Good advice from JAVGuzzi - "Fact : ... But remember, it's your responsibility to prove you did at least 1K miles. Don't rely on your odometer, for sure."

This is from my last SS1000 Trip Log - note the speedometer mileage. (Most of you already know this - give yourself a cushion!)

GPS Unit - Garmin Street Pilot 2610
Total Ride Time by GPS - 18Hrs / 9 Min
Mileage - Garmin MapSource - 1,019 Miles
Mileage - By GPS - 1,021 Miles
Mileage - Motorcycle Odometer - 1,058 Miles

I'd be pretty cross with myself for missing the mark by 1 mile!!
Probably sell my motorcycle and move in with Ira for punishment...
 

kwthom

=o&o>
Premier Member
IBA Member
#26
<...>I feel about 5 miles is a plenty good cushion when using an accurate routing program. So far, no problem getting my rides certified.<...>
See post #5 in this thread.

Ira preaches his gospel on distance estimation, since I have to believe there have been more than a few riders that have submitted 100x mile rides, thinking they have it "in the bag". Especially in the 'olden days', before the widespread use of S&T and other mapping products.

Then finding out, and being disappointed by the realization that it really wasn't a 1000 mile trip that was submitted - as the verification team would confirm by whatever means they do their magic behind the curtain for the benefit of those who care to make the attempt.

In short, Ira and the rest of the IBA simply want people to succeed. Nothing inherently wrong with that philosophy. In order to succeed, be smart about your planning.
 

JAVGuzzi

Premier Member
#27
I wouldn't rely on Basecamp, Google Maps, Tyre for Travel, etc. for trip distance until I verified the accuracy compared to my GPS. We have to rely on some standard. My GPS is the standard I use. It would be helpful to know what standard is acceptable to the IBA. But for some reason that's been a secret.
 
#28
The IBA reviewers more than likely, use more than one mapping utility to verify mileage. I believe they compare the mileage using three or maybe more sources Exactly what they use, I don't know, but I'm very confident that a GPS is going to gives good accuracy.
To date, Mapsource has been what I use and it's been within 1 to 4 miles of my GPS.

Just my $0.02
 
#29
FYI - this is from a BB1500 using Mapsource to route the "adventure". (I did this with two other riders on their own motorcycles and we stopped at a rest area for about 3 hours - then ate breakfast)

GPS Unit - Garmin Street Pilot 2610
Total Ride Time by GPS - 30 Hrs / 28 Min
Mileage - Garmin MapSource - 1,545 Miles
Mileage - GPS - 1,549.8 Miles
Mileage - Motorcycle Odometer - 1,607 Miles
 

Rony6ble

Premier Member
#30
I wouldn't rely on Basecamp, Google Maps, Tyre for Travel, etc. for trip distance until I verified the accuracy compared to my GPS. We have to rely on some standard. My GPS is the standard I use. It would be helpful to know what standard is acceptable to the IBA. But for some reason that's been a secret.
The IBA reviewers more than likely, use more than one mapping utility to verify mileage. I believe they compare the mileage using three or maybe more sources Exactly what they use, I don't know, but I'm very confident that a GPS is going to gives good accuracy.
To date, Mapsource has been what I use and it's been within 1 to 4 miles of my GPS.
Agreed on the Standard and the use of more than one routing program. As for now, I have had so many issues with my cheap --it's actually the cheapest garmin I could find-- garmin nuvi 55LM, lost of power, etc... with the other hand held Garmin GPSMAP60CSx works fine unless I forget to adjust the background light or tracking settings. I need a hardwired decent GSP to ensure the entire trip is recorded.

I don't have S&T but use Google MyMaps and Basecamp. Sometimes I also create the map with Bing Maps but have no idea how to share (I just learned to share the route but not the entire map) and keep the route for future viewing. I'm sure there is a way to do this and be able to export to a KML, them compare everything. Interesting project when I get time...

What I also try to do is simplify the route. When Google makes some complex turnings I just move the pit to minimize the distance. For example, after selecting the gas station icon I just simply move it to get a clean route. This simple example can work. There is a 3 mile difference (less) after 'cleaning' the route:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LVRmxhDi-NlGhXJg83156O1kU5Q&usp=sharing
 
#31
Rony6ble,
I've seen Mapsource do some goofy things with routes as well. At times it will take me off the Interstate and route me out of the way on a two lane highway for miles, then put me back on the Interstate. It's also routed me to take an exit and then right back on the Interstate with no turns... go figure!! LOL.
Don't know why it does that, but is easily fixed by moving via points.
I've only experimented routing with BaseCamp so haven't used it for any rides, but will sure look give that program some more time since a number of IBR competitors use BaseCamp during the rally. I always check the mileage with other mapping programs, (i.e. Google Maps) just to ensure I'm within the ball park before starting out.

All that said - I'm a firm believer in a solid "cushion" of additional miles for any ride I do for certification. I like to provide plenty of information in a chronological format to the reviewers to avoid a lot of "head scratching" and make their job as easy as possible.
 

JAVGuzzi

Premier Member
#32
I give the certification team all that is listed in the ride requirements, plus I also include a CD with the S&T .PDF of the ride and any other extra documentation that I can think of. I want to make their job as easy and streamlined as possible.
 

Rony6ble

Premier Member
#33
I've seen Mapsource do some goofy things with routes as well.
I think Basecamp is the new Mapsource version.

... will sure look give that program some more time since a number of IBR competitors use BaseCamp during the rally.
Check Tim Masterson's videos or blog:

BTW, I use Streets & Trips to plan my rides and S&T and my Garmin 2720 after the ride have always agreed within 1 mile. ...
... 2% of 1,000 is 20 , but it looks like you don't need that much of a cushion if you have an accurate routing program to prove you will do over 1K miles. ..
... I think I can rely on Streets & Trips to give me an accurate mileage. I feel about 5 miles is a plenty good cushion when using an accurate routing program. So far, no problem getting my rides certified.
To date, Mapsource has been what I use and it's been within 1 to 4 miles of my GPS.
Can you import a route (gpx) or even better, the coordinates of waypoints into S&T and Mapsource and recreate a specific route?

I would be interested in comparing different routing software and come to a conclusion. Say start from a common CSV or KML/KMZ or GPX file with Waypoints and see what happens. And then go and ride to compare with different GPS

These are the ones I have access to for now:
Google Maps
Basecamp
Bing Maps
Furkot

I don't have
Mapsource
S&T

There may be others...
 

JAVGuzzi

Premier Member
#34
Yes, you can import a GPX file ( Data > Import GPX file ) into S&T and also manually enter coordinates ( Tools > Find > Lat/Long ) and then create a route. You can also enter a start time and stop times for each waypoint and also adjust your speed for the route. And S&T is quick to use.

You can then download your route into your GPS. S&T can also create a PDF for your trip , if you want to share it.

I really don't know why Basecamp is so popular. I have tried to use it, but it seems really "clunky" compared to S&T .

Tyre for Travel ( free version ) seems easier to use than Basecamp ( for me ).

Having said all that, it's also true that S&T isn't produced or supported by Microsoft anymore, but who cares ? It still works just fine for me.
 

JAVGuzzi

Premier Member
#35
FYI : I just planned a SS3K ride around all 5 Great Lakes. S&T gives me 3,021 miles and Tyre for Travel gives 3,024 miles using the same GPX file. So, Tyre for Travel seems pretty accurate, too.
 
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Ira

Staff member
Premier Member
IBR Finisher
IBR Staff
#36
FYI : I just planned a SS3K ride around all 5 Great Lakes. S&T gives me 3,021 miles and Tyre for Travel gives 3.024 miles using the same GPX file. So, Tyre for Travel seems pretty accurate, too.
Let's just say they closely agree, which is a bit different than being accurate. Both give you about a seven-tenths of one percent cushion. As always, I would recommend at least 2-3% as a guard against falling a couple of miles short.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
 

Howard Entman

IBR Finisher
Premier Member
#37
If you're going to ride 3,000+ miles over 3 days, doesn't it make sense to ride an extra 45 minutes or so towards the end of the ride to get an extra 50 miles to better ensure that your pass the verification tests? You only have to ride for 25 miles past your intended destination, make a u turn and ride home.

Every ride is different. However, the verification team will often use the shortest distances between two points, rather than the distance that google or S&T or Tyre recommend. For instance, the mapping programs will often route you around a major city on the interstate peripheral highway because of the speed limits and expected congestion, while the direct route through the city might be much shorter. Unless you provide documentation to show that you actually took the longer bypass road, your 'proven' mileage might be reduced.

On the ride you propose, there are many twists and turns and road options. I suspect that verification might be a complicated affair, even with lots of mileage cushion.

A word to the wise!

Howard
 

Rony6ble

Premier Member
#38
Every ride is different. However, the verification team will often use the shortest distances between two points, rather than the distance that google or S&T or Tyre recommend. For instance, the mapping programs will often route you around a major city on the interstate peripheral highway because of the speed limits and expected congestion, while the direct route through the city might be much shorter. Unless you provide documentation to show that you actually took the longer bypass road, your 'proven' mileage might be reduced.
True, the shortest distance between two points is not always the fastest, but does this makes sense all the time?
Routing around a mayor city even with increasing mileage will result in less riding time (even if you have to stop for 3 minutes just to get a receipt, not necessary a gas receipt).
Or just in a big city, using freeways is normally faster (depending on traffic) than surface streets.

Does the verification team always look for a shorter way do get to the next point even if it doesn't make sense to use that route?
How much can you rely in a GPX file or SPOT tracker to prove the route? In other discussions about witness forms someone asks a similar question.

IMO receipts are great to add a bit of adventure and planning to the ride.
 

Howard Entman

IBR Finisher
Premier Member
#39
As has been said on many forum postings, it is the rider's duty to 'prove' that he (she) did the ride. Gas, or other electronic business receipts are the gold standards, with mileages between receipts generally measured as the shortest distances between them. However, SPOT or other satellite tracker systems can provide valuable additional proof.

Every ride is different. Each route is different, and the circumstances of each ride are different. So the verifiers look for different factors on each ride. Having said all that, it is easier to prove that you rode at least 1,000 miles when you actually ride 1,040 miles.

Howard
 

EricV

Premier Member
IBR Finisher
#40
Howard Entman - You only have to ride for 25 miles past your intended destination, make a u turn and ride home.
Actually, you meant to say: Ride for 25 miles past your intended destination, GET A VALID RECEIPT, make a u turn and ride home. It doesn't help if you can't prove your route by documentation.

@Rony - Not sure what appeals to you about getting a cert for a ride as close to 1000 miles as possible? The challenge is to get over 1000 documented miles. No one cares how close to the mark you were, (except you, apparently). There are lots of SS1K certs for way over 1000 miles, either due to the rider's destination plans that happened to include a cert ride, or just because a BBG ride turned into a SS1K ride.

If you really must attempt to achieve a cert ride as close to 1000 miles as possible, plan your best route and submit it to the IBA for pre-verification. If they approve and agree that your route is acceptable, go ride and document it. Then submit the ride as normal for your cert. This is normally only done on City SS1K rides or unique group rides where certs will be handed out immediately after the ride at an event.