600Km or 350 miles

[Naughty Bart]

As stated by a few the 600km range is unique to australia
my two cents worth is

Seeing as most rides done here are usually certified by IBA Australia

Can we not have an Australian max of 600km and moving forward we get this ratified by Mr Kneebone and the IBA certification team

For rides completed within Australia

 

[tj189]

As stated by a few the 600km range is unique to australia
my two cents worth is

Seeing as most rides done here are usually certified by IBA Australia

Can we not have an Australian max of 600km and moving forward we get this ratified by Mr Kneebone and the IBA certification team

Certifications are conducted under supervision of IBA, we have only recently been able to have Rebecca taken on with the verification team.

Please read posts #9 and #19 above

 

[tj189]

We need 600km reinstated ASAP.
It should never have been in question and I'll point to a mention I made much earlier this year to this issue.

Please read posts #9 and #19 above

 

[OX-34]

Peter,

I am not sure why you have highlighted this ride of mine other than in an attempt to either embarass or bully myself . May I request that you cease and desist your attack on me personaly.

There is no dispute from myself or any of the IBA Australia Management Team regarding the use of 600km distance requirement for documentation. We, IBA Australian members did not change nor request that this distance be changed to the current 350 miles. As we have requested that this be changed back to the original 600Km and that it has been rejected by Howard, may I suggest that you and other riders take the complaint to him.

TJ, I am not attacking you personally.

The Tassie-Darwin ride was the second ride that I clicked from the big list (https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/index.html) to see what the distance rules may contain. The first was the page for the "Ride Around the Big Paddock". (https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/aroundthepaddock/index.html) That particular page opens up to say that "TJ (Trevor) Evans completed the ride. That page does NOT have distance rules mentioned at all. That page DOES have another link to a .pdf under the section "Documentation". (https://www.ironbutt.com/rules/ss1000.pdf). The link is called rules, but contains NO rules. Go ahead click on it yourself.

I am not attempting to embarrass or bully you. Just because you rode that ride (with its 600km limit) or the other ride (with seemingly no limit listed) is irrelevant.

Stick to the content.

You are a member of IBA Australia management and it is in that capacity that I was addressing you. I reckon management should be able to give a proper response when an issue is raised even in this informal environment of the forum.

When riders bring that to your attention I believe it is also the IBA Management Team responsibility to advocate on their or my behalf and not - ever - tell the riders to contact a representative of the IBA themselves. You represent us. SO represent us. That ain't bullying, cobber.

 

[tj189]

TJ, I am not attacking you personally.

The Tassie-Darwin ride was the second ride that I clicked from the big list (https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/index.html) to see what the distance rules may contain. The first was the page for the "Ride Around the Big Paddock". (https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/aroundthepaddock/index.html) That particular page opens up to say that "TJ (Trevor) Evans completed the ride. That page does NOT have distance rules mentioned at all. That page DOES have another link to a .pdf under the section "Documentation". (https://www.ironbutt.com/rules/ss1000.pdf). The link is called rules, but contains NO rules. Go ahead click on it yourself.

I am not attempting to embarrass or bully you. Just because you rode that ride (with its 600km limit) or the other ride (with seemingly no limit listed) is irrelevant.

Stick to the content.

You are a member of IBA Australia management and it is in that capacity that I was addressing you. I reckon management should be able to give a proper response when an issue is raised even in this informal environment of the forum.

When riders bring that to your attention I believe it is also the IBA Management Team responsibility to advocate on their or my behalf and not - ever - tell the riders to contact a representative of the IBA themselves. You represent us. SO represent us. That ain't bullying, cobber.

Peter,
Please read posts #9 and #19 above.

I now request for a second time that you cease and desist in your bullying.

I will no longer respond to your posts.

 

[thommo]

Perhaps in future, that when a change such as this is made ( pretty much covering all rides in general), that a sticky post should be made noting the rule change and that it overrides whatever may be in the various ride rules pages. It would make it clear to all that a significant change is being made and why and at the same time remove some of the closed doors mentality the IBA brass seem to have.

 

[Rusjel]

Great suggestion Thommo.

but before we talk about ‘closed door mentality the IBA brass seem to have’ let’s step back and remember that our IBA Oz ‘brass’ are volunteers doing their best to administrate this pub, herd the cats, keep records etc etc.

 

[OX-34]

More rides with 600km written in the current rules contained in the Big List ( https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/index.html) :

Australian Centreline - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/centreline/index.html
Western Australia End to End Gold Challenge - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/westaustend2end/index.html
Heaven to Hell Gold - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/h2haus/index.html
The Ends of the Earth - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/ausendsoftheearth/index.html

The remaining "Rides you can do in Australia" do not specifically list any limit, though many refer the rider to read the SS1000M/SS1600K rules. So I think I have found that every Australian Specific ride that lists a specific DBR limit lists 600km as that limit. No Australian specific ride lists 560km. No Australian specific ride lists 500km.

I note there is also a "Documentation Guidelines" page (https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/documentation/)
That page mentions two things pertinent to this discussion:
1) ...560km..
2) "Comply with all rules of the ride as described on the“ride page”.

So if the ride page says "600km" as several do, that seems to imply that that particular ride is governed by a particular set of rules including the specific mention of 600km.

 

[tj189]

Apologies to all our IBA Australian riders, we missed having the following rides amended once Howard changed the requirement to 350M (560Km)

Australian Centreline - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/centreline/index.html
Western Australia End to End Gold Challenge - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/westaustend2end/index.html
Heaven to Hell Gold - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/h2haus/index.html
The Ends of the Earth - https://www.ironbutt.com/themerides/ausendsoftheearth/index.html

Please note, that we did request Howard to change the DBR requirement back to 600Km but this request was denied so as to maintain consistency across IBA rides.

We have, today, requested Howard to amend the above rides to show the change to 350M (560Km). Howard has just advised, as of 0720 today that this will be completed within the next 10 days

For the rides above, please ensure you follow the current requirement for DBR Documentation Guidelines

Should you note any other rides that we may have missed please let us know.

 

[tj189]

Important notice regarding DBR Requirements for Australian Specific Rides Important Notice

 

[OX-34]

I had a zoom call with Howard the other day TJ.

Yowza. Gatey can you provide a link or location for that 'Rule'? And any idea of the 'trigger' for lowering the 600km down to 560km?

I won't bother submitting my recent 100CCC as I was working with the 15 year old 600km limit that Davo negotiated for Australia. I was also working with my own well established fuel stops over a dozen or so previous 50CC/100CCC rides.

Come to think about it most of my 80 or so IBA rides would have had a Leg of over 560km

Despite your claim that the rules changed irrevocably some 18 months or so ago and that seemingly disparate countries cannot have their own unique rules to suit local conditions, I think I will submit my 100CCC ride after all.

 

[Gatey]

New year new blood at the top.
so lets get this changed back to 600 kilometers.

Its local and relevant to the ground we run on.

Intel.
Two servos very much in the mix for any east to west run on the eastern seaboard are going to fold in the next 9 weeks.
To be frank they are and or have been key to every type of LDR.

600k needs to be re instated as these are on a common route. Time critical for as it turns out.

 

[EricV]

Question - Does IBA Australia verify all Australia IBA rides? Or do they go to the US verification teams?

 

[Gatey]

Hi EricV.

In the past it all goes to the US.
Even recent big dog rides went to the US.
We now have Pillion Piglet working here in Oz and Chris? in NZ but to be honest I don't actually know how this all works these days.
Some riders tell me a certificate pack now cost over$100 Oz dollars so it seems to indicate they are still US certified.

We have in Australia been asking for years for local certification.
I'm not sure how Bec works it all out.
Maybe someone higher up could open a topic specifically on the steps involved? And pin it in he Oz forum.

Like many in Oz we don't actually know.

 

[EricV]

@Gatey - Thank you for the reply.

Considering the distance and cost of post, even though the IBA is moving to digital, it still seems like it would be a huge advantage to allow IBA Australia to manage the Oz certifications. This would make it easier to have the local km limit between DBRs a suitable distance for the realities of Oz riding. I know Mike K. likes to have verification teams very well trained to his standards. And that can take time. I also know Howard can be stubborn at times when he has his mind set on something. It's still Mike's business and he's the President. (and it's no more transparent on this side of the pond)

From the view of an outsider, I can see the desire to have one standard world wide, but also the real need for the realities of Oz being factored in. The US is the land of 24 hour servos, but not so everywhere in the world.

Perhaps some sort of compromise for specific Oz rides can be sorted? For the Extreme/Gold level rides that go through known areas exceeding the 563 km distance between fuel/DBR options?

The alternative is for our community to identify other sources for a DBR in these areas where servos are closing and share that info with the community to make it easier to sort for those doing the rides.

 

[thommo]

Question - Does IBA Australia verify all Australia IBA rides? Or do they go to the US verification teams?

Shrugs... No idea mate. The last ride I submitted couple of years ago was US certified.

 

[Gatey]

Hi EricV.

The Australian riders have come up some very creative methods to prove time and place over the years and in combination with a SPOT or similar these have proved acceptable.

The real issue is actually getting the fuel. Some of our traditionally 24/7 servos are cutting hours or the number of days in a week they stay open round the clock or till say 23:00hrs.

A facture that has changed/altered locations of these mostly isolated fuel stops is the greater fuel capacity of most long-haul trucks out here now.
And the age of almost all the servos. New ones get built old one's loose customers and so the hours reduce.
An example.
If you're heading to Adelaide from the northeast of NSW via the Hay Plane and your start is any time after 06:00 then it's very likely when you get to Ouyen the fuel will be closed. next stop is Pinnarroo in SA. has a 24/7 OTR
A quick look on a map will find Balranald (questionable after 21:00hrs as I found twice in 12 weeks)
So West Wyalong to Pinnarroo is 669km. West Wyalong to Hay any time after 5pm has nothing to offer. Hay to Pinnarroo is 415km which makes a questionable Balranald and-or Ouyen must hit fuel stops.

The example is very mundane and normal for most and small part of many big rides.

Now there are unmanned sites that take a card. But after 22:00hrs these are often reverted to diesel fuel only. Truck service only.

Try on a trip across the top end and it's a mine field and it's a long way between any fuel regardless of business hours.

The big thing here in Australia is regardless of DBR by ATM or spot or whatever else or other creative methods to show your location. The fuel stops are a long way apart and at some point a place will not have ATM or fuel or cell coverage.

And now facture in the ease/freedom in planning with which one can choose a rest stop and sleep knowing the 600km actually buys you flexibility
in stratergy.

EricV I do like the idea of finding specific rides that should have the 600km freedom.
That would be a great step forward.

 

[EricV]

Another random thought; the whole point of the 350 mile rule has always been to make it easier for the verification teams to verify a ride. Believe me, when I had a 800km range it was sometimes irksome to stop just for a receipt.

So, my question would be to the Verification teams, have they had issues with the 600km distance in the past? I don't expect a public answer, but the thought here is that if they have had issues, knowing the nature of them may help everyone. I rather suspect they haven't had issues too often, as it's fairly easy to see if someone cut a corner or not, even with a 600 km distance between DBRs.

Not my first rodeo. We've all been there, get gas early so we can ride all night or risk no gas when you need it in the middle of the night, (or middle of no where).

You're coming from West Wyalong to Hay, then you had better stop in Goolgowi before 2000 to top off. Then it's only 523km to Pinnarroo. Don't pass known gas for unknown gas.

If you're heading to Adelaide from the northeast of NSW via the Hay Plane and you didn't top off at the Tasco in Gillenbah, yes, you're looking thin on options. But if you did top off in Gillenbah, it's only 446km to known fuel in Ouyen up to 2100, but 582km to Pinnaroo where it's 24 hour service. That passes the 350 mile rule, so you write a short explanation that no fuel was available when you passed through until Pinnaroo.

I still agree that the 600km rule makes more sense than the 563km rule, but it's easy to see why some would feel the 37km difference isn't such an issue.

From the SS1600km ride page:

We strongly caution that out on the road it may not be possible to follow these guidelines to the letter. If that happens, please explain any problem you encountered and we will do our best to work out a solution. For example, 24 hours and 35 minutes into his ride, one rider could not find a gas station, eventually he found an ATM and got a receipt. While he was over the 24 hour time period, he had also ridden 1,081 miles, obviously he had ridden over 1,000 miles in 24 hours (no one can ride 81 miles in 35 minutes). In a case like this, we roll the map and clock back to the 24 hour point.

 

[Fatman]

Is the 560km rule such a big problem?

Gatey, you got my interest to review a small sample of 5 Lynne the Pillion's and my IBA rides to see what our furthest km's between obtaining a DBR was? Bare in mind we have never ran a long range fuel tank, just the standard R1200RT 25L fuel tank and some rides we carry a 10L jerry can to top up in between the larger gaps, document this jerry can stop as normal. Below is what I found.

Jan 2016, 50CC Gold from Coogee NSW to Scarborough WA, 3945km. Furthest km between a DBR was 473km Port Augusta SA to Ceduna SA.

Sept 2016, 50CC Gold from Warrnambool Vic to Cooktown Qld, 3955km. Furthest km between a DBR was 402km Roma Qld to Emerald Qld.

June 2017, 100CCC from Melbourne Vic to Darwin NT and return to Melbourne Vic, 7468km. Furthest km between a DBR was 486km Glendambo SA to Marla SA.

Dec 2018, Hell to Heaven from Lake Eyre SA to Charlottes Pass NSW, 1846km. Furthest km between a DBR was 417km Marree SA to Peterborough SA.

June 2019, Lap of the Paddock starting and finishing at Officer Vic, 15062km in less than 9 days. Furthest km between a DBR was 513km Katherine NT to Kununurra WA.

So I don't really see the 560km rule an issue to how we ride and the routes we select, just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Gatey]

Hi Eric

So, my question would be to the Verification teams, have they had issues with the 600km distance in the past?

Answer I feel sure of on the Australian scene is No. I don't believe in all the years Australia has had a 600km acceptable distance between DBR.
No Eric. It was always an Australian feature and I think as such verification team guys understood the local issue and worked from that perspective.

Gillenbah is in the totally wrong track to fit with NE NSW to Adelaide. Im going to the southeast of South Australia on Thursday/Friday. I might just test that route. God knows Im doing alot of off bike miles. Research is gold.
Just pulled that alteration. Google brings my map through Victoria. Be aware thats not the route to drop be into SE SA. Im going to run this. Its more km but ill put it in research mode.

Goolgowie is closed by 17:30 these days and no Im not about to ring ahead for fuel. Those days are well gone from the Australian sceene.

So it will happen for some that an addition to thier documentation will need to read why the rule could not be ridden to the letter.

Rule 1. Never pass gas late in the day for a prospector's hunch. Even a river will run dry.