Nesting, help me understand

#1
A few of us are planning a 50cc, may turn out to be a 100ccc.

If 100ccc, and riding to and from the starting point to home, is @ 5,600 miles

So we could accomplish as well:

-Saddlesore 5000, plus every other Saddlesore under.
-Bun Buner Trifecta (possibly a 1500 Gold)

But from what I read, you shouldn't ask for 50cc if completing 100ccc as by default 50cc is part of 100ccc, but would it be too much to ask for:

-Saddlesore 5000
-100CCC
-Bun Burner Trifecta
-Bun Burner 1500 Gold
-Saddlesore 2000 Gold

Not asking for SS1K, 2K (if not gold), 3K, 4K. Also, not asking for BB1500 (if not gold), BB3K. Does this sound right?

Questions:
1. If qualified for the above, would you ask for more or less than what's listed? Am I missing any?
2. How do you figure out how much $$$ to send in when nesting?
3. Will one ride form cover all of these?
4. Do you just get a signature before you start and one when your journey is complete and let the receipts and spotwalla speak for themselves? For example, I'm planning fuel stop a few miles past the 1,500 mark, is the receipt good enough to qualify for a Bun Burner 1500 Gold, or do I need a separate form and separate signatures? I'm thinking just one form for the entire journey, but I want to be sure.

Thanks in advance!
 

Ira

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#2
The basic rule for nested rides is if one ride by definition is completed within another, we only issue one certificate. For example, everyone who completes a Bun Burner GOLD (1,500 miles in 24 hours or less) has by definition completed a Saddlesore 1000 (1,000 miles in 24 hours or less) and a Bun Burner 1500 (1,500 miles in 36 hours or less). The fact is, one cannot complete the BBG without completing the other two rides. As a counter-example, one can complete a Bun Burner 1500 without necessarily completing a Saddlesore 1000 (e.g., one completes the first 1,000 miles in 25 hours but the 1,500 miles within 36 hours).

Sometimes, the analysis of multiple rides can get confusing, but let's give your combination a ride.

First, let's look at the Bun Burner Trifecta (three BBGs back-to-back-to-back)/Bun Burner GOLD rides. If one completes a BBG Trifecta, one has to have completed at least one BBG. So we issue the Trifecta certificate, but not the BBG.

Next, let's look at the BBG Trifecta (4,500 miles in 72 hours or less)/Saddlesore 2000 GOLD (2,000 miles in 36 hours or less). The rules for back-to-back rides is that one needs to complete each leg (1,500 miles in this case) within the standard time limit for that ride (24 hours or less in this case). So the question is whether one can complete 2,000 miles within 36 hours without necessarily completing 1,500 miles within 24 hours . The answer is yes. So, if this is correct, we could issue both the BBG Trifecta and Saddlesore 2000 certificates.

Next, let's look at the Saddlsore 2000/100ccc combination. Again, the back-to-back rules require you to complete each leg in 50 hours or less. The shortest distance for a 50cc is about 2,200 miles. So the question is if one can complete 2,200 miles in 50 hours without necessarily completing 2,000 miles in 36 hours. Again, the answer is yes. so at this point, we could certify the BBG Trifecta, the Saddesore 2000 GOLD, and the 100ccc.

Finally, the Saddlesore 5000. As a note, the Saddlesore 5000 (and 4000, 3000, and 2000) is not considered a back-to-back ride. That is, one needs to complete 5,000 within 5 days, not 1,000 each day for five days, if you see the distinction. Here, the question is if one can complete 5,000 miles in 120 hours (Saddlesore 5000) without necessarily completing 4,400 miles in 100 hours (100ccc) and can one complete 5,000 miles in 120 hours without necessarily completing 2,000 miles in 36 hours? If my analysis is correct, the answer is yes and yes.

To sum up, it looks like you could apply for the Saddlesore 5000, the BBG Trifecta, the Saddlesore 2000, and the 100ccc, but not the BBG.

To answer specific questions,

1. If by "would you ask for more or less than what's listed," you are referring to documentation, right? Each ride's documentation needs to conform to the rides' documentation requirements. For the nested rides, you don't need a seperate start witness if the rides are starting at the same time and place. If a ride starts during a larger ride, obtain a computer-generated receipt with time, date, and location to document that ride's start time. Similarly, you only need a witness at the end of the last ride. If a ride ends within a larger ride, obtain a computer-generated receipt with time, date, and location to document the end of the ride.

2. You pay full-boat for the most expensive ride and $20 (certificate-only) for each additional ride.

3. Use as many forms as needed to make clear each ride's documentation requirements.

4. See above.

If anyone spots something that doesn't look right, speak up - no one's perfect. :)

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
 
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kwthom

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#3
As always, Ira's answer is spot-on, and is what I've understood about nested rides. I didn't take the time to fully digest the analysis of the OP's specific situation, but would defer to that analysis as it's probably a 98% solution - easy! :D

The remaining 2% might be Ira's estimate on the shortest 50cc distance. 2400 miles, not 2200 - but close enough for the analysis to still be valid! ;)

There was quite a lengthy discussion on the old forum about nested rides, as I recall. HardTXRider (Tim Masterson), elsewhere on this forum, has a nice dissertation of nesting rides, and what I'm going to write now summarizes what he wrote. Consider this with nested rides:

If you're doing this simply to get certifications on various rides, you (and many others, including me) have no issues.

If you're wanting to go after Mile Eater certifications...this will NOT work. Mile Eater certifications require independent rides.

I did a Why? to Whynot! along with a SS2000. On the way home, I did a nested BBG in a 50CC.

Four certificates earned, but only two of those rides count toward Mile Eater status.
 
#4
Pardon quick steel of the thread.

Leg A 500 miles. 9.5 hrs at point B start a Lake Huron Circle SS1K returning to point B, 18 hrs. total run = 27.5 hrs.
At 35.5 hrs. at point B start a Lake Michigan Circle SS1K returning to point B in 20 hrs. The run time of the two Circle runs =46hrs.
At 54 hrs start leg D for 500 miles for a total of 3K in under 72hrs.

If I understand this correctly
For Mile Eater I could claim, (BBS and a SS1K), or a SS2k or a SS3K

For nesting, a BB Silver, Lake Huron Circle, Lake Michigan Circle, a SS2K, and a SS3K

Am I correct?

-Mark
 

Ira

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#5
I refer you to the basic rule as stated earlier. I hesitate to offer an analysis - doing a lot of these makes my head explode :) and I don't want this thread to turn into an endless number of these kind of queries.

Ira Agins
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#6
I refer you to the basic rule as stated earlier. I hesitate to offer an analysis - doing a lot of these makes my head explode :) and I don't want this thread to turn into an endless number of these kind of queries.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
Fair enough
 

kwthom

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#8
Ira's first paragraph in post #2 alludes to the answer. Again, the way my simple brain processes this, you'll get Mile Eater credit for the longest ride in a series of rides that is NOT an independent (an independent ride start/stop sequence - e.g. a substantial rest period).

You'll certify what I'll call unique rides when done concurrently. In my case, there was no need to certify BB1500, since the Why? to Whynot! ride I did was the 36-hour version - thus a longer ride by definition than BB1500.

My suggestion would be to take the analysis that Ira did for Slyguy and plot out both the ride and the certifications that you *think* you earned, and the certifications that Ira has analyzed, just to see the complexity factor that's trying to be minimized by giving 'credit' for those difficult rides in lieu of all of the other nitnoid ride certs.
 

kwthom

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#10
Wow, I did not know you could get more than one certificate on one ride. :eek:
Interesting - and you're right. I've had a lot of 'old-timers' mention that very fact. I want to think that on the old forum, there may have been a (brief) explanation of when that change happened. My suspicion is, possibly around the time of the Mile Eater program's beginnings?
 

Ira

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#11
Interesting - and you're right. I've had a lot of 'old-timers' mention that very fact. I want to think that on the old forum, there may have been a (brief) explanation of when that change happened. My suspicion is, possibly around the time of the Mile Eater program's beginnings?
I think Greg might have had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. :) It's been that way for as long as I can remember - at least 20 years. At first, one was considered a Mile Eater if one completed at least two certificate rides, but there was nothing beyond that. The Mile Eater program, with its' differing levels, is relatively new.

Ira Agins
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Greg Rice

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#12
I think Greg might have had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. :) It's been that way for as long as I can remember - at least 20 years. At first, one was considered a Mile Eater if one completed at least two certificate ride, but there was nothing beyond that. The Mile Eater program, with its' differing level, is relatively new.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
Ira, I guess you was looking at my profile photo. ;)

But on the topic at hand I always thought nesting certificates was like doing a BBG on a 50CC / 100CCC ride where you rode from Jacksonville Beach to Van Horn ( 1510 miles ) on day one. I did not know it could be so elaborate.

I have only applied for one cert per ride and I never used miles for one cert on another cert.
 

Ira

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#13
And that is the religious war that has raged since the beginning. One school of thought says "one ride, one cert", and that nested rides is an affront to man and god. The other school of thought says one should take credit for every ride they can.

I am neutral on the matter.

Ira
 

RichmonS

Premier Member
#17
@Ira I have a question regarding your analysis in your first post. With the following certificates:

Saddlesore 5000
BBG Trifecta
Saddlesore 2000
100ccc

Which ones count toward Mile Eater status? I have a big ride and I am working through your post to determine if/how I could break it up. The key for me is not how many raw certs but which ones I can claim toward Mile Eater Silver.
 

Ira

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#18
@Ira I have a question regarding your analysis in your first post. With the following certificates:

Saddlesore 5000
BBG Trifecta
Saddlesore 2000
100ccc

Which ones count toward Mile Eater status? I have a big ride and I am working through your post to determine if/how I could break it up. The key for me is not how many raw certs but which ones I can claim toward Mile Eater Silver.
The Mile Eater rules state:

"Anyone who completes more than one certified ride but NOT on the same ride, for example, your first ride is a SaddleSore 1000 and at a later date, you complete another certified ride, such as a Bun Burner 1500. However, completing a SaddleSore 1000 AND Bun Burner 1500 on the same continuous ride is not eligible for Mile Eater status."

I read this to mean that you can use one ride of a nested set toward Mile Eater status, but not more than one. So in the above example, take your pick.

Ira Agins
Iron Butt Association
 

kwthom

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#20
Again, as explained to me, Mile Eater certifications require independent rides.

I did my rides with a ~36 hour layover in the middle of them. Thus, by definition, it's a whole new ride for certification purposes, complete with ending log and witness sheets.

The ride become rides by what I'll call "a line of demarcation" You have to stop riding, be done, and off the clock for some period of time before another ride starts.

New log, new witness sheets, et. al.