Road Glide question
- Thread starter Jim in FL
- Start date
In all fairness, I believe you are projecting your evaluations onto others. You have looked at these numbers and prioritized your interpretations as you see fit. Others will have different outcomes and in our sport, we live in the grey area of compromise and balance, which changes for every individual. I suspect that we rarely evaluate most of our equipment choices based on good/bad or yes/no. I usually have several criteria and granularity ranging from 1/0 to 1-100, and I assume others have similar approaches.
I chose HD for my first two because it was NOT mainstream. I have mostly satisfied my interpretation of that platform for this event and others like it. I believe the bike still has more potential and that the limiting factor was the nut between the handlebars and seat. I had some minor mechanical issues (IBR19) that I believe were set in motion before the the rally (Dalton Highway) and I had a tire issue in IBR21 that was not the fault of the bike. Mostly, those challenges were exacerbated by rider choices, like a strategy decision that was poorly chosen, for instance.
I plan to change my platform and have been pursuing a R1200 GSA for its all around suitability. For a person of my size, it will still be a compromise that I will need to try to minimize, but I can't ignore that it will go anywhere and can be ridden for long periods reliably. I looked at Japanese models, but I keep coming back to the GSA when I looked at the big picture. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else that they should pick one based on my criteria. All I can do is try to explain why I chose what I did, which changes over time.
I think we all do some projecting and interpreting, and I don't disagree with your observations.
You deliberately chose NOT mainstream. Why?
I'm at a loss why you would find the GSA appealing, but you might want to take a hard look at the service costs, recommended service intervals and go ride one before you pull that trigger. You're making assumptions too. I've had one in the garage. I've worked on it. I've seen first hand the bills from the dealer and that wasn't the first BMW in the garage.
And if you take absolutely nothing else from the conversation, take this to heart - buy an aftermarket extended warranty when you buy the bike. BMW doesn't sell them for a reason. If they don't trust their bikes to hold up over the miles, why should you?
This topic started off with someone asking which unsuitable bike version might have issues they need to be aware of? You can't defend your choice to ride a HD in the IBR. You can say why you did it, and what you like/enjoy about it, didn't like, etc. That's not the same thing. By your own words you chose a bike less suited for the task for your personal reasons.
Examine that. And why you're considering doing it again. I very concisely explained the big picture. You prefer not to accept that point of view. Your ignorance of BMW will change if you choose to own one. At a steep cost.
Trying to explain why someone's choices are a Bad Idea is simply an attempt at helping them achieve the goals they stated to begin with. As I originally asked the OP, did you want to finish these events? If so, why go out of your way to reduce the odds of doing so?
Some people just want to do things and go ahead and do it regardless of common sense. Michael Boge on the KTM 2-Stroke, for example. He didn't finish, didn't do well, spent most of the IBR dealing with the limitations of the bike, but he rode it to the end. I like Michael and have spent time talking with him at past events, but I think that was the most retarded choice of the last IBR. What's the point of being capable of a Gold level finish, but shooting yourself in the foot at the start and knowing full well you'll be lucky to even make it to the finish at all?
You deliberately chose NOT mainstream. Why?
I'm at a loss why you would find the GSA appealing, but you might want to take a hard look at the service costs, recommended service intervals and go ride one before you pull that trigger. You're making assumptions too. I've had one in the garage. I've worked on it. I've seen first hand the bills from the dealer and that wasn't the first BMW in the garage.
And if you take absolutely nothing else from the conversation, take this to heart - buy an aftermarket extended warranty when you buy the bike. BMW doesn't sell them for a reason. If they don't trust their bikes to hold up over the miles, why should you?
This topic started off with someone asking which unsuitable bike version might have issues they need to be aware of? You can't defend your choice to ride a HD in the IBR. You can say why you did it, and what you like/enjoy about it, didn't like, etc. That's not the same thing. By your own words you chose a bike less suited for the task for your personal reasons.
Examine that. And why you're considering doing it again. I very concisely explained the big picture. You prefer not to accept that point of view. Your ignorance of BMW will change if you choose to own one. At a steep cost.
Trying to explain why someone's choices are a Bad Idea is simply an attempt at helping them achieve the goals they stated to begin with. As I originally asked the OP, did you want to finish these events? If so, why go out of your way to reduce the odds of doing so?
Some people just want to do things and go ahead and do it regardless of common sense. Michael Boge on the KTM 2-Stroke, for example. He didn't finish, didn't do well, spent most of the IBR dealing with the limitations of the bike, but he rode it to the end. I like Michael and have spent time talking with him at past events, but I think that was the most retarded choice of the last IBR. What's the point of being capable of a Gold level finish, but shooting yourself in the foot at the start and knowing full well you'll be lucky to even make it to the finish at all?
BMW now offers first party extended warranties on their bikes, even if they are out of the factory warranty period. They have offered them overseas for years and are now providing same in the USA.
I'll say one more thing and then leave this thread alone, every rally is different for every person who rides it. We all have our own goals, generally it is to finish, some want to win, some want to see cool places, some want to enjoy the event and some...some want to try an additional challenge aside from the usual challenge a rally provides.
Nothing is wrong, no bike choice or route or any other choice is wrong, it's all personal choice for personal reasons.
I've run two IBRs, 2019 on a BMW I had a DNF due to a fuel pump failure. Did the bike fail or did the fact that I used the tank vent for my aux tank input put strain on the fuel pump and cause the failure, you cannot answer that 100 percent so you'll speculate it was BMWs fault.
In 2021 I ran and finished the IBR on a BMW, a chain drive, no aux tank BMW and did pretty well all things considered. Am I an idiot or just lucky? Or did I ride the IBR on the bike I chose for reasons personal to me and I'll be damned if I don't love my F850 and I'll be damned if I don't try for the LDX and the 2023 IBR and ride that bike again in them.
If it breaks down it breaks down, I'll know one thing, I will enjoy every mile on a bike I enjoy.
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CB650F
Premier Member
I just want to point out that BMWs aren't Japanese bikes. If a Japanese liter bike is the best thing to use, then all those BMW riders are doing it wrong.
Then again, I agree with Mark in that no bike choice is wrong and that you'll enjoy rallies more on a bike you enjoy riding, but you know what I'm saying.
Then again, I agree with Mark in that no bike choice is wrong and that you'll enjoy rallies more on a bike you enjoy riding, but you know what I'm saying.
@Marc11 - I believe you have been misled. If you have a link to info on BMW offering extended warranties, please share that. I can find no reference to anything of that sort on the BMW web site. They offer extended service contracts, up to three years, but that is a different animal all-together.
I am not as forgiving as you are. Some choices are wrong for the stated goals. And actually, my personal point of view on using vent lines for aux fuel is very well documented on this and other forums. That method is wrong. If that contributed to your fuel pump failure, it is beyond my knowledge or ability to speculate.
Make no mistake, the rider can overcome poor choices sometimes. I can point out time and time again riders would have done better if they had just followed the basic outline instead of trying to re-created the wheel. Very, very good riders have made poor choices, for a variety of reasons, some beyond their immediate control. Sometimes you just ride what you have and deal with what happens the best you can. Part and parcel of the IBR is overcoming the problems that come up, be they with the bike or the rider. The person with the fewest problems, that makes the fewest mistakes, usually wins.
The whole point of all this, AGAIN, is if you're starting from scratch, why not give yourself the best shot at success?
@EricV - I happen to agree with every word you're saying, but if I've learned anything about motorcycle forums, it's that certain brands have developed a cult-like loyalty that simply precludes and obviates any attempt at rational debate. Their loyalists will turn a blind eye to anything that goes against the dogma.
First we would have to pour over 15 years of IBR data to determine the oil and tires all the DNF's were using. The Bike is simple, water cooled, Japanese over a liter equals a Vmax.
CB650F
Premier Member
There is more to motorcycle riding than getting your name listed on top of the leader boards. Success is often measured in terms of enjoyment. Different people get that enjoyment in different ways. Some just want to be the top of the leader boards. Others want to build a Harley and take it to a rally. It isn't always about winning. Sometimes, motorcycle riding is about the journey rather than the destination.
Soul! That's why. Nobody says "Dang, I feel like a million bucks every time I sit in this Corola." Plenty of people love sitting in an Elise, late 60's 'vette, a 911, or an old series 1 E-Type. Those vehicles are chosen because they aren't mainstream. The things that make those vehicles not mainstream are the things that make them enjoyable. People who are interested in building their own motorcycles don't want mainstream. They want something unique. That's why they build the bikes.
Why do anything but support someone who asks about building a Harley for the purposes of long distance riding, in the Harley-Davidson section of an internet forum dedicated to long distance riding? I don't even like Harley bikes, but I've got nothing but support for someone wanting to do what the OP is asking about. If he does it, I'd love to see pictures of the build.
Go ride more. Bikes with "soul" break. Do you have any rally experience at all?
I asked a polite question. One that was never answered. Preconceived notions indeed. Sure, not everyone is trying to win. I do get that. But at some level, you might as well skip rallies and just tour if you're not going to even try and are going to set yourself up for failure.
When you understand that the bike is a tool, then you might start to understand why you pick the correct tool for the task. You don't pick an Elise for a commuter car, you pick a Corolla. Could you commute in an Elise? Sure, but you'd be a damn fool to do so. Wasting money and beating up a car suited better for track days. Not to mention being uncomfortable as hell for a commuter task. The list goes on. Just because you can, doesn't make it a good choice.
Intervention is when you educate someone that their preconceived idea isn't really a good choice and maybe they should open their eyes and look around a bit before they spend far more money to get far poorer results.
I asked a polite question. One that was never answered. Preconceived notions indeed. Sure, not everyone is trying to win. I do get that. But at some level, you might as well skip rallies and just tour if you're not going to even try and are going to set yourself up for failure.
When you understand that the bike is a tool, then you might start to understand why you pick the correct tool for the task. You don't pick an Elise for a commuter car, you pick a Corolla. Could you commute in an Elise? Sure, but you'd be a damn fool to do so. Wasting money and beating up a car suited better for track days. Not to mention being uncomfortable as hell for a commuter task. The list goes on. Just because you can, doesn't make it a good choice.
Intervention is when you educate someone that their preconceived idea isn't really a good choice and maybe they should open their eyes and look around a bit before they spend far more money to get far poorer results.
Do we have a Dead Horse Icon
CB650F
Premier Member
Instead of just accepting that you are a lost cause, I'm going to try again from a different angle. I honestly believe that you are capable of understanding what is going on here.
Yes, bikes with soul break. But that's not the end of the story. Bikes without soul break too. In the 2021 IBR, a BMW DNF'd because of mechanical reasons (assuming @lakota is correct). That's a soulless bike breaking right in front of your eyes. It should also be pointed out that 68% of all Harley-Davidson bikes that start the IBR finish it. Only 75% of BMWs finish, so HD is not far off. That's a 7% difference (by simple math). Yamaha has an 86% finish rate. That's 11% better than BMW (again by simple math). Why aren't all those BMW riders trading up to a Yamaha? Why are BMW owners now giving themselves the best shot at success? Why would they chose a sub-optimal platform with an 11% higher chance of failure? If everything was about getting the best chance at winning, everyone would just ride the same bike. Clearly, there is more to rallies and long distance riding in general than winning.
Why is there a Hopeless class in the IBR? If it's all about winning, such a class shouldn't even exist. Clearly, the IBA itself understands that there is more to the IBR than getting your name on the top of the leader board. Why don't you? There are plenty of people who like a challenge. Heck, everyone here in the IBA know about enjoying challenges. That's kinda what the IBA is about. Don't you think some people in the IBA want a bigger challenge, like using a bike that isn't quite the ideal long distance bike for long distance duty?
Let's explore that analogy a bit. The first sentence is extremely important, and I think it demonstrates the issue. Yes, bikes are tools. Yes, you should pick the correct tool for the task. But you don't always fully understand other people's intended tasks. Perhaps my vehicle's task isn't only to commute from Point A to Point B. Perhaps my vehicle's task is to provide driving enjoyment via stark contrast with my F350 diesel dually pickup truck. I may want something light weight, sporty, a good choice for track days, and it has to turn heads, but not cost a small fortune, and can do double duty as an occasional commuter when I don't want to take the big truck. An Elise is a good choice for such a vehicle. I can replace the seat in it in favor of something more comfortable, add carpeting, and tune the suspension for a bit more compliant ride and have a vehicle that still works well on the track, but also does okay as an occasional commuter and will definitely turn heads. Sometimes, the less popular less ideal choice is the best choice for the intended task.
My point here is that you are misunderstanding the task. You are missing the most important parts of the OP's intended task. It's not about buying the most popular rally bike. It's about building his rally bike out of the bikes he loves. A Japanese liter plus bike is the wrong tool for that job. He's a Harley guy and wants a Harley rally bike. When you understand the job, then you might start to understand why a different bike is the wrong tool for that job.
That's what I've been trying to tell you. Winning a rally isn't the only task, even for a rally bike. In the OP's case, the actual building process is probably far more important than winning the IBR. The physical journey of building the bike is a huge part of his task. You can see this in cert rides. You start at home and end up at home (for most of them). The task is the journey, not where you end up.
Consider this your intervention. I am educating you that your preconceived idea that a mainstream rally bike isn't really a good choice for the OP's intended task. Maybe you should open your eyes and look around a bit before suggesting that he spends money on something he isn't looking for, i.e. spending far more money to get far poorer results. Your preconceived idea that the OP is just looking for the best possible rally bike is wrong.
CB650F
Premier Member
Yes, EricV, you are arguing against choice.
That's you calling the OP a dumbass for his choices. That's you arguing against choice.
That's you claiming that every HD rider is always worried about the mechanical integrity of their bike during any rally. That's you arguing against choice.
This is you directly questioning someone else's choices. Later in that same post, you say that HD is unsuitable, then tell someone who has finished an IBR on a Harley that he can't defend his choice to do so. That's you arguing against choice.
That's you calling someone else's choice "the most retarded choice of the last IBR". That's you arguing against choice.
You are doing exactly what you claim to not be doing. You are arguing against anybody who will dare to choose HD for a rally bike.
You are correct that neither you nor I know fully what the OP is looking for. That's exactly why we should be trying to help him do what he said he wants to do (build an HD rally bike) rather than telling him to abandon his desires and do something totally different because that other bike is better at winning rallies. Your preconceptions about what the OP wants are unfounded. Listen to what the OP is actually saying.
Let me be clear Matthew, you're not qualified to have an opinion. You want a feel good conversation to enable someone to do dumb things. They will learn they made dumb choices later, through their own experience. You're not helping any by suggesting he be enabled to do dumb things.
Or, they could just listen to people that have BTDT and save themselves some time, money and effort. Jim is not a finisher in the IBR. Not because of a bike failure, but in part due to lost time. I'm going out on a limb and suggesting that he wants to be a Finisher. It's a Bad Idea™ to use a bike that might add new problems to the mix, instead of going with something stock and proven.
Or, they could just listen to people that have BTDT and save themselves some time, money and effort. Jim is not a finisher in the IBR. Not because of a bike failure, but in part due to lost time. I'm going out on a limb and suggesting that he wants to be a Finisher. It's a Bad Idea™ to use a bike that might add new problems to the mix, instead of going with something stock and proven.
CB650F
Premier Member
And there's no point in reading beyond this. Go fuck yourself Eric.