Something to consider?
- Thread starter Ahamay
- Start date
That'll end in frustration and chaos with dodgy overtakes right left and, hopefully not, centre.
I think part of the argument for varying the speed limit by vehicle type was based on stopping distances where vehicles that have a longer stopping distance should be subjected to a slower speed limit which kind of makes sense to pedestrians. Obviously this makes no sense when different vehicle types are travelling on the same stretch of road and are being subjected to different speed limits. For example, where a vehicle subject to the lower speed limit is being followed by a vehicle subject to a faster speed limit they should both be travelling at the same speed, if not instances of being rear ended will be on the rise.
Let common sense prevail, keep it simple and adopt a system where all vehicles are subjected to the same limits.
I think part of the argument for varying the speed limit by vehicle type was based on stopping distances where vehicles that have a longer stopping distance should be subjected to a slower speed limit which kind of makes sense to pedestrians. Obviously this makes no sense when different vehicle types are travelling on the same stretch of road and are being subjected to different speed limits. For example, where a vehicle subject to the lower speed limit is being followed by a vehicle subject to a faster speed limit they should both be travelling at the same speed, if not instances of being rear ended will be on the rise.
Let common sense prevail, keep it simple and adopt a system where all vehicles are subjected to the same limits.
If that were the case, autos would have slower speed limits, heavy trucks even slower and motorcycles the fastest of all.
If they want to reduce road accidents, require additional rider and driver training. In the US the average road user doesn't even know how to merge, never mind have some basic grasp of physics to understand the consequences of cutting off a heavy truck or turning left in front of a motorcycle.
If they want to reduce road accidents, require additional rider and driver training. In the US the average road user doesn't even know how to merge, never mind have some basic grasp of physics to understand the consequences of cutting off a heavy truck or turning left in front of a motorcycle.
I don't want to get into a big discussion with 8x10 photos and diagrams, but speaking of modern disk brake motorcycles, the simple aspect of vastly lower mass to stop always puts a motorcycle at an advantage. Forget ABS and other assistance. You just have less mass to slow down. As far as rider/driver experience, very few people know how to threshold brake, (or even correctly use ABS), and fewer practice it. Thus the call for more rider/driver training.
This sort of legislation usually comes about because of "dangerous roads"........
I have yet to see a road do a dodgy overtake or brake check anyone......
Roads of course are not dangerous.... the idiots that drive on them are what cause the accidents.
The number of times I hear on the TV that this road or that road is the most dangerous road in this place or that place....
I will stop before I start a proper rant.
I have yet to see a road do a dodgy overtake or brake check anyone......
Roads of course are not dangerous.... the idiots that drive on them are what cause the accidents.
The number of times I hear on the TV that this road or that road is the most dangerous road in this place or that place....
I will stop before I start a proper rant.
I think you're forgetting to factor in the tyre to tarmac contact patches, or consider that not all braking is done in a straight line. No matter its a close race but the cars the favourite by a neck! Not sure I understand how an ABS braking system could be applied incorrectly.
car driver vs motorcycle rider tests/training here in the UK is very different. To get a car driving licence you need to pass a two hour theory test and a one hour practical driving test and you're good to go. To get a motorcycle (over 500 cc) driving licence you need to pass an 8 hour Compulsory Basic Training (CBT) test followed by two separate closely scrutinised practical riding tests (Mod 1 and Mod 2).
car driver vs motorcycle rider tests/training here in the UK is very different. To get a car driving licence you need to pass a two hour theory test and a one hour practical driving test and you're good to go. To get a motorcycle (over 500 cc) driving licence you need to pass an 8 hour Compulsory Basic Training (CBT) test followed by two separate closely scrutinised practical riding tests (Mod 1 and Mod 2).
Lower speed limits for motorcycles to me seems to be an ill conceived, knee jerk reaction to the issue. Yes it could give motorcyclists more time to react to car drivers who fail to see them. Yet again this puts the onus on motorcyclists to take responsibility for their safety. Most of us are hyper aware of our vulnerability and ride accordingly.
Those motorcyclists that speed, some even utilising speed detectors, will not change their riding habits.
How quick your reaction time is to the incident will probably make more difference than the car or motorcycle question. Most motorcyclists are more aware and will therefore react quicker than a car driver. Already braking and slowing before the car driver has reacted.
At no point have I seen or heard any of the law makers advocate more training for car drivers.
Unfortunately someone has suggested this. Pandora's box has been opened.
Those motorcyclists that speed, some even utilising speed detectors, will not change their riding habits.
How quick your reaction time is to the incident will probably make more difference than the car or motorcycle question. Most motorcyclists are more aware and will therefore react quicker than a car driver. Already braking and slowing before the car driver has reacted.
At no point have I seen or heard any of the law makers advocate more training for car drivers.
Unfortunately someone has suggested this. Pandora's box has been opened.
@JohnR - I suggest you find a race track that offers a braking test area and compare a car of your choice and a motorcycle of your choice. The results may be enlightening.
ABS works to it's fullest when you compress the brakes hard enough to engage ABS, AND hold it at that level. At that point the computer is doing the work. Many people let up before stopped or don't engage the brakes hard enough to go into or stay in ABS mode. This defeats the system or never engages it, despite it being present on the vehicle.
If you're trained to threshold brake, taking the vehicle to the edge of tire adhesion and feathering it there, you're in a dance of just how much brake pressure you can use at any given instant, as conditions change, lean, etc. That's a far different muscle memory than what is required for ABS.
In the end, we are individually responsible for our safety. It would be nice if the other road users were more skilled as well. It would also be nice if the idiot motorcycle riders among us didn't go do dumb things and get on the news.
ABS works to it's fullest when you compress the brakes hard enough to engage ABS, AND hold it at that level. At that point the computer is doing the work. Many people let up before stopped or don't engage the brakes hard enough to go into or stay in ABS mode. This defeats the system or never engages it, despite it being present on the vehicle.
If you're trained to threshold brake, taking the vehicle to the edge of tire adhesion and feathering it there, you're in a dance of just how much brake pressure you can use at any given instant, as conditions change, lean, etc. That's a far different muscle memory than what is required for ABS.
In the end, we are individually responsible for our safety. It would be nice if the other road users were more skilled as well. It would also be nice if the idiot motorcycle riders among us didn't go do dumb things and get on the news.
I can't help but notice a deviation in the thread?
It started with a possible reduction of speed limits and a question about adapting time limits of IBA rides?
Suddenly it's about training and ABS and stopping powers etc....?
FWIW I would like to offer my humble opinion about.... well, the items...may take a while though - sorry about that.
My country, Belgium, is devided into three regions: Flanders, the Walloon Region and Brussels.
In Flanders where I live, the overall speed limit outside the villages/towns is 70 km/Hr (43.5 mi).
On the average, town limits are 50 km/Hr (31 mi) but in the center it is a trend to lower that to 30 km/Hr (18 mi).
In the Brussels Region it is simple: 30 Km/Hr (18 mi) everywhere (so Belgian Beer Riders beware).
The Walloon Region is for us motorcyclists the most interesting: 90 (56 mi) / 70 / 50 / 30 with the trend to lower the 90 to 70 and implement the 30 instead of the 50.
On the federal motorways the limit is 120 km/Hr (75 mi) but according to the congestion, it can change to various limits, even ad hoc.
Those circumstances make it almost impossible to archieve an IBA run in the given time limits, should one adapt ones speed to the legal limits.
Radardetectors are prohibited and can lead to impounding the vehicle.
Excessive disregard for the speed limits can/will lead to a day in court, losing driving licenses and penalty's high enough to be able to obtain numerous sets of tyres. I say no more but hey, those are my riding circumstances!
In order to archieve an IBA ride, I have the opportunity to go and ride on the autobahn in Germany.
All systems to detect speed traps etc. are forbidden over there and the overall german Autobahnpolizei are not always amused when dealing with a motorcycle-speeder.
My point is: an IBA run is not always a walk in the park and IMHO it should not be one.
If it would be easy to archieve an IBA run, everyone could do it and than I 'd ask myself the question: "Is the certificate still worth its value?"
Perhaps it is worth reflecting about the given ride formulas, but let's not panic for now and let's try and adapt and prepare ourselves in another way? Choose time and place carefully and if it is not doable in the given circumstances, change the planning or don't do it?
The European proposal of lowering speed limits specifically for motorcyclists is dumb, dangerous and clearly comes from an idiot mind that has never felt a motorcycle saddle between his/hers legs!
When I was attempting a BB2500Gold on sunday 22.10.2023 I was rear ended at the Danish/German border by the driver of a van.
It was sunday morning 04:45 hr, dark, straight road (E45) no traffic at all and 70Km/Hr speed limit. I had additional lighting and reflecting gear.
The driver of the van (who fled the scene btw) didn't seem to need to lower his speed to the given limit and hit me from behind, resulting in a crashed motorcycle and injuries all over.
This is merely an example to demonstrate that, should the European proposal comes into reality, our chances of survival become slim!
I don't agree that a motorcycle can stop in a shorter distance than a car. Of course it also depends on the circumstances of space and time.
Is the rider duly trained, how about the tyre pressure, is there any oil on the road, reaction time, etc....? It is not always a question about reacting to the event, but mostly about *how* that reaction is performed. Schooling, training and repeating that knowledge on a frequent base is vital to be able to react in a proper way, to at least have a hope of survival.
I admit that some motorcycles have additional systems that may offer some advantages (like my RT) but, talking about an emergency breaking maneuver, I 'd rather be in a car at that moment.
I'm not a physicist. I'm a humble police trained motorcyclist with 37 yrs of experience and - with a little luck - still able to tell the tale.
In these modern times there are numerous systems to assist us. Skills that are or are not present in the average driver/rider and are or are not learned before hitting the road. In my experience, a motorcyclist, in most situations, will always lose the battle (=>ATGATT) !
I'd like to end with the iconic words of Phil Esterhaus: "Let's be careful out there!"
Apologies for the length of the argument.
Ed.
It started with a possible reduction of speed limits and a question about adapting time limits of IBA rides?
Suddenly it's about training and ABS and stopping powers etc....?
FWIW I would like to offer my humble opinion about.... well, the items...may take a while though - sorry about that.
My country, Belgium, is devided into three regions: Flanders, the Walloon Region and Brussels.
In Flanders where I live, the overall speed limit outside the villages/towns is 70 km/Hr (43.5 mi).
On the average, town limits are 50 km/Hr (31 mi) but in the center it is a trend to lower that to 30 km/Hr (18 mi).
In the Brussels Region it is simple: 30 Km/Hr (18 mi) everywhere (so Belgian Beer Riders beware).
The Walloon Region is for us motorcyclists the most interesting: 90 (56 mi) / 70 / 50 / 30 with the trend to lower the 90 to 70 and implement the 30 instead of the 50.
On the federal motorways the limit is 120 km/Hr (75 mi) but according to the congestion, it can change to various limits, even ad hoc.
Those circumstances make it almost impossible to archieve an IBA run in the given time limits, should one adapt ones speed to the legal limits.
Radardetectors are prohibited and can lead to impounding the vehicle.
Excessive disregard for the speed limits can/will lead to a day in court, losing driving licenses and penalty's high enough to be able to obtain numerous sets of tyres. I say no more but hey, those are my riding circumstances!
In order to archieve an IBA ride, I have the opportunity to go and ride on the autobahn in Germany.
All systems to detect speed traps etc. are forbidden over there and the overall german Autobahnpolizei are not always amused when dealing with a motorcycle-speeder.
My point is: an IBA run is not always a walk in the park and IMHO it should not be one.
If it would be easy to archieve an IBA run, everyone could do it and than I 'd ask myself the question: "Is the certificate still worth its value?"
Perhaps it is worth reflecting about the given ride formulas, but let's not panic for now and let's try and adapt and prepare ourselves in another way? Choose time and place carefully and if it is not doable in the given circumstances, change the planning or don't do it?
The European proposal of lowering speed limits specifically for motorcyclists is dumb, dangerous and clearly comes from an idiot mind that has never felt a motorcycle saddle between his/hers legs!
When I was attempting a BB2500Gold on sunday 22.10.2023 I was rear ended at the Danish/German border by the driver of a van.
It was sunday morning 04:45 hr, dark, straight road (E45) no traffic at all and 70Km/Hr speed limit. I had additional lighting and reflecting gear.
The driver of the van (who fled the scene btw) didn't seem to need to lower his speed to the given limit and hit me from behind, resulting in a crashed motorcycle and injuries all over.
This is merely an example to demonstrate that, should the European proposal comes into reality, our chances of survival become slim!
I don't agree that a motorcycle can stop in a shorter distance than a car. Of course it also depends on the circumstances of space and time.
Is the rider duly trained, how about the tyre pressure, is there any oil on the road, reaction time, etc....? It is not always a question about reacting to the event, but mostly about *how* that reaction is performed. Schooling, training and repeating that knowledge on a frequent base is vital to be able to react in a proper way, to at least have a hope of survival.
I admit that some motorcycles have additional systems that may offer some advantages (like my RT) but, talking about an emergency breaking maneuver, I 'd rather be in a car at that moment.
I'm not a physicist. I'm a humble police trained motorcyclist with 37 yrs of experience and - with a little luck - still able to tell the tale.
In these modern times there are numerous systems to assist us. Skills that are or are not present in the average driver/rider and are or are not learned before hitting the road. In my experience, a motorcyclist, in most situations, will always lose the battle (=>ATGATT) !
I'd like to end with the iconic words of Phil Esterhaus: "Let's be careful out there!"
Apologies for the length of the argument.
Ed.
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