The Future of the BBR

[wully]

I've just had one of best motorcycling weekends for a long time, great weather, meeting friends great conversation and must of all fun.

My worry is the number of people who experienced such a great weekend. I know for some time we have been trying to increase numbers, but Friday showed work is still needed.

I for sometime have been trying to encourage some customers of mine at work who fit the criteria, ride motorcycles and do relatively high mileage and seem interested, but no joy. When I ask they use the reason technology. I asked what they mean, planning a route and using GPS .

I have thought about this and do understand what they are getting at.
When I did my first Rally, the second BBR, you were given the rally book, then manually put the information in to a mapping program, then worked on route. On the rally you put the checkpoint manually into your GPS then road to your next one repeat. Now we get an email with the checkpoints, which we run through excel then import to Basecamp then export to our GPS.

May be this use of technology scares people off before they experience it. Maybe we could change the rally book, with map of the UK showing the location of all the checkpoints, the checkpoint description could show a map to indicate the area of the checkpoint. This would allow people to see understand were checkpoints are, maybe the past could have the answer. I don't know.

Teams training session on how to use excel and route planning. Just ideas

It scares me every time i set up prior to a rally.

How can we not scare off newbys before they enter. Interesting question any thoughts.

 

[JohnR]

I don't have a laptop to plan such events on, having the rally book sooner rather than later may encourage others without reassuringly expensive kit to enter a rally.

 

[EricV]

As someone that started doing rallies with paper maps and highlighters, pictures with polaroid camera, technology has indeed changed over the years. I have always felt that the “buy in” need to be low on at least some rallies to get new people in the door. If they have to buy things they don’t otherwise have a need for, that is a stumbling block.

Perhaps two classes, low tech and current tech? Give the low tech the rally book a day early, (or more), and actual addresses or near point for bonus locations, not just GPS lat/lon. Gives them all the fun, lowers the threshold and some extra time to plan. If they like what they experienced, they may start thinking more about a GPS or laptop and learning new tricks.

 

[GSears]

Perhaps you could try and get them interested in the Brit Butt Tour. The opportunity to use the previous years bonus locations to plan a days or weekends riding without the time constraints of the rally. As they become more familiar with the concepts they can introduce their own time/riding constraints. They could even do it with a buddy as a social ride. They may gain sufficient confidence to do one of the shorter rallies.

You could offer to help with their planning. I remember doing a planning session at JY's with Grimm when I started.

Just a thought.

 

[JON12A]

Maybe a class one Saturday before the rally to get folks up to speed on the tech required.

 

[stig of the dump]

getting the rally book early is not a problem in my opinion. the reality is no one is going to plan a significantly better route, it all comes down to how an individuals mind makes decisions.

some people will always get a better route (or make better decisions) than others it come down to experience and preconcieved ideas that are inbedded in our personalities, theres whole books and papers on the subject i use to have to read them.

And not handing out the rally book till gone 20:00 hours is only adding to the pressure on the rallyist and if you have a technology issue this only compounds it (trust me i've been there). plus carting a laptop around is not some peoples idea of fun and not every one has a laptop. which will limit your potential rallyist.

there is support within the country for riding events so why are people staying away. i myself have missed the last 2 bbr's the rally has become more about technology and less about route planning and riding. there is a zero tolerance when at the scoring table for minor clerical errors missing a space or adding an extra number in the early hours of the morning isnt hard but when you loose 100% and its a combination , that is hard to take and needs a serious rethink, a percentage of loss would be accepatble rather than total

 

[kwthom]

<...>
i myself have missed the last 2 bbr's the rally has become more about technology and less about route planning and riding.
<...>

Agreed!

Haven't most rallies in the UK *and* here in North America succumbed to the technology for success vs. using the brain cells we've been given to figure things out?

Thus, LD rallies have now been burdened with the need to be 'technologically gifted' in order to be a finisher in even the most basic of rallies. Nearly everything necessary to compete is now tied to a screen (or many screens). No, maybe it doesn't need to be Polaroids and paper maps...and I think that many would agree that Basecamp is a necessary evil.

Is that because we're (collectively) trying to mimic being in an IBR for those of us that have a miniscule chance if that of being in the Big Rally?

 

[Megabuck]

Thanks for kicking this thread off, Wully. The relatively small number of entrants is something we're concerned with; any insight as to why people don't enter is useful.

That said, each rider can make it as complex or simple as they want when it comes to technology. If a rider wants to use a map, coloured stickers, highlighters and put together an enduro-style set of roller instructions, they can. If they want to take the GPX file, run it through Excel, plan a route in Basecamp and then load it onto their satnav, they can; or they can do anything in between the two.

Training sessions on how to do route planning: we've held those at our get-togethers, usually with an audience of 30-40 people, but we still only get 25-ish entrants - including quite a few who weren't at the planning sessions! Also, that's why we have the 8- and 12-hour rallies, with the rally book provided a week in advance - remove the added stress of needing to plan a route on Friday evening, give enough time to try different things. Also, see Gordon's point, that riders can use the Brit Butt Tour to see what's in a rally book, and think about planning routes. On that topic, we won't be issuing the rally book ahead of time for the BBR. After all, it's supposed to be a challenge, the most difficult rally we run!

The only requirements to be a finisher this year were to cover more than 500 miles, and to make it back to the hotel by 6:30 pm on Sunday. I'm sure anyone could plan a route to achieve that in a couple of hours, whatever level of technology they use. If you're thinking 'yes, but it wouldn't be a competitive route...' - well, my analogy would be aiming to run a half-marathon in ordinary shoes and feeling that top-end running shoes give others an unfair advantage.

Face it, our world is hugely different from how it was, say, 20 years ago - smartphones, live traffic updates, Google Streetview to locate the exact spot, bikes with TFT screens with integrated comms and nav, satnavs that can even tell you the weather en route. None of it has changed the fundamental truth: the top places on the rally go to the riders who plan the best routes, and who then ride the plan. Yes, the tech used to do those things has changed - I'd say, for the better. Wully's description of having to manually enter each location into a mapping program, plan a route, then manually program each location into the satnav while on the rally - if we went back to that, would it really encourage new people to enter? I seriously doubt it! But if that's what a rider wants to do, they can - just ignore the GPX file and copy locations from the rally book.

Anyway, thanks to all of you for your thoughts; let's keep the discussion going, because I'd much rather have 40 entrants for the rally!

Regards,
Martin

 

[JohnR]

I'll throw the gauntlet down to you Martin, do the rally without your laptop.

 

[EricV]

I’m curious in regards to the challenge of the BBR. @Megabuck - Martin, do you feel the challenge is in figuring out the puzzle, or planning a competitive route the rider can accomplish and then testing their mettle in riding the route they come up with?

Endurance rallies in the US started out with simply being about the riding. You got a list of bonuses with varying point levels, you planned a route you thought you could ride that hopefully got you the most points. Then you tested your route and adapted it as need be on the fly.

That changed somewhere along the line into themes, game challenges with complicated scoring methods that might have you adding and subtracting different bonuses, combos, threads, etc. The riding became secondary to figuring out the puzzle of the event. Some do love that. I found it an annoying distraction from the riding.

I loved endurance rallies for the places they took me I might otherwise never go and the things I saw along the way.

 

[Megabuck]

I'll throw the gauntlet down to you Martin, do the rally without your laptop.

Hi John,

I don't do the rally - I'm the organiser! That said, my point is that it's quite possible to plan a route without using a laptop that would guarantee you being classified a finisher, if that's what you want to do. I'm not saying it would be a particularly rewarding approach to it, or that it's something I'd want to do, or that you could do that and expect to be competitive; but if you don't have a laptop, or don't want to use it, you can.

Regards,
Martin

 

[EricV]

Hi John,

I don't do the rally - I'm the organiser! That said, my point is that it's quite possible to plan a route without using a laptop that would guarantee you being classified a finisher, if that's what you want to do. I'm not saying it would be a particularly rewarding approach to it, or that it's something I'd want to do, or that you could do that and expect to be competitive; but if you don't have a laptop, or don't want to use it, you can.

Regards,
Martin

But since it wouldn’t be particularly rewarding… what’s the incentive to do the event? You’re not getting the turn out you want. So how are you presenting the event to riders? What is it you hope draws them in?

Oh my, you do have some issues there. Coddiwomple. I see marketing isn’t your strong suit. If you want an honest tear down, PM me, otherwise I’ll hold my tongue.

 

[Megabuck]

I’m curious in regards to the challenge of the BBR. @Megabuck - Martin, do you feel the challenge is in figuring out the puzzle, or planning a competitive route the rider can accomplish and then testing their mettle in riding the route they come up with?

Hi Eric,

We don't have themes, or threads, or anything more complicated than eight combos - visit two to four specific bonuses to score extra points. While I haven't checked, I believe our winner focused almost exclusively on the combos, while the guy who finished second mixed up some combos with high-value bonuses.

All of this only matters if you're trying to be competitive - although, that said, I reckon there's a pretty high correlation between IBA riders and competitiveness! Your observation about getting to new places was made by multiple participants this year, who really enjoyed that side of things. So, you could turn up, plot a route that took you to wherever in the country you wanted to ride, and not really worry about the points; at least a couple of our riders did just that, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

That's a good indication that much of the 'pressure' that some people feel (and may not like) is purely internal; at the finish, nobody got criticised for going out and having a damn good ride. And I think that's part of the challenge we face as organisers. People will enter their local fun run, 10K, half-marathon or whatever with absolutely no expectation of being anywhere near the front - they'll just go out and run. But for the BBR - ooh, there's points on offer, points mean prizes, gotta plan the best possible route. So how do we get over that?

Regards,
Martin

 

[EricV]

Perhaps present the event a bit differently than you are now. You’re putting on an excellent event, but the website reads like you’re offering a commuter service with a banquet and included tour guide to read along the way.

 

[Megabuck]

But since it wouldn’t be particularly rewarding… what’s the incentive to do the event?

Hi Eric,

Now, there's the competitive element kicking in. From the comments we got at the finish, I don't believe there's a single rider who made it back who'd say it wasn't rewarding - 800 to 1,200 miles (or more!) riding through some of the best scenery; Devon/Cornwall, Wales, Scotland, how could that not be rewarding? Especially when the bonus points meant you'd ride on roads, and see things, you'd never encounter any other way. There were a fair few who were disappointed with their performance in the final standings, but that's a different thing to having a rewarding weekend!

I think that's all part of the challenge for the organisers. There's a handful of riders who are likely to be in the top places at the end, but you want a scheme where determined non-elite riders can feel they've done well; and you want the less committed participants to have a really enjoyable weekend. Of course, the fantastic weather over the weekend was a big help; no matter how you organise it, if someone ends up feeling they've been through repeated rinse & spin cycles they're unlikely to enjoy the experience.

Regards,
Martin

 

[EricV]

Hi Eric,

Now, there's the competitive element kicking in. From the comments we got at the finish, I don't believe there's a single rider who made it back who'd say it wasn't rewarding - 800 to 1,200 miles (or more!) riding through some of the best scenery; Devon/Cornwall, Wales, Scotland, how could that not be rewarding? Especially when the bonus points meant you'd ride on roads, and see things, you'd never encounter any other way. There were a fair few who were disappointed with their performance in the final standings, but that's a different thing to having a rewarding weekend!

I think that's all part of the challenge for the organisers. There's a handful of riders who are likely to be in the top places at the end, but you want a scheme where determined non-elite riders can feel they've done well; and you want the less committed participants to have a really enjoyable weekend. Of course, the fantastic weather over the weekend was a big help; no matter how you organise it, if someone ends up feeling they've been through repeated rinse & spin cycles they're unlikely to enjoy the experience.

Regards,
Martin

All that is excellent Martin. Condense that into a description for the event. You absolutely want entrants to see that potential!

 

[JohnR]

...my point is that it's quite possible to plan a route without using a laptop that would guarantee you being classified a finisher

There is more to the BBR than "being classified as a finisher" because there are points to amass and trophies to be won. There will always be the 'in it to win it' entrants, however, if we want to attract more entrants we must allow them a chance to be competitive and to meaningfully measure their performance against other entrants, this is not possible without a laptop.

...If a rider wants to use a map, coloured stickers, highlighters and put together an enduro-style set of roller instructions, they can.

That would not be possible or safely possible with the time constraints. The Rally Book is not available until 8pm the night before a 6am start.

 

[stig of the dump]

not sure how you expect people to take part with a map and stickers when the bonus's come out as a gpx file the evening before. some level of technology is required . now this is not a bad thing it makes it easy to load onto a computer mapping system and you need email capability to even collect a bonus. So we're stuck with some level of technology no matter what. so we move with the times but this limits your appeal to those new to the game who may well fancy riding but dont want to invest in that level of technology for what could be a one of ride.

much of the 'pressure' that some people feel (and may not like) is purely internal

true but its unnnecessary you seem to be under the impression that given more time people will be able to plan much better routes. it is true that given extra time and individual may getting a slightly improved route and look at a number of options they would not consider under a time constraint. But this is not going to make any significant difference in the results.
there are two types of decision rational and intuitive, not neccesarily good and bad that is the end result of the choice. planninig any route is based on the decisions you make when you get the rally book.

Rational is when all data is available and analysed ussually by commitee

Intuitive is the gut feeling decision this is when we dont have a chance to build up much data and we always relay on intuition when faced with unfamiliar challanges

an expert is more likely to make good decisions i.e. plan a better route and the first option they pick is likely to be the best and a better choice than that of a novice , critical thought is ussually then applied to look for any problems that might not have been initially recognised.

i could harp on for a long time on this but back to my first piont by complete reliance on technology last minute deliver of information, over complicating rallies you dont make it warm and welcoming. so just sending the gpx file out days early removes certain restraints for those with limited technology or computers systems that develop a bug the night of the rally the extra time just gives a better option to sort it out.

personally i'd like to see the rally book sent out as a pdf file as well as a paper book after several days in the rain books can look rather sad and pages drop out, and i get the dam thing out at every checkpoint just to double check ther rally book and what i'm looking at matches.

hopefully there is room to be a little more flexible and this may well be more attractive to potential riders if we continue with its my way or nothing attitude where will we end up?

 

[Whistler]

I am one of those riders who enjoys the participation and the social side, but does not set out to be competitive. I don’t chase the points I just set out to have an enjoyable long distance ride.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t just do the bare minimum to be classified as a finisher. I rode just shy of 900 miles this year and visited double figure locations.

My Admin is effective and I rarely get points deducted. Just as well as I don’t get many.

I don’t use a laptop, never have. I plan on a paper map and latterly on a GPX App on my phone. I like the paper map planning. That’s just what I like. I am not saying it’s for everyone.

Clearly, if I wanted to be more competitive I dare say I could. I know what I need to do to be competitive. Not stopping at every Starbucks I pass would help…..
Also, I choose not to collect bonus locations after dark. I will ride after dark to get to a bonus location at first light but don’t collect bonuses in darkness. I also generally take an extended rest bonus as I like my sleep. I could plan a competitive route if I chose to.

If I took the minimum rest bonus, didn’t repeatedly stop at coffee shops and collected bonus locations after dark I would definitely do better. For now, I choose not to.

I also tend to rock up on a bike that’s entirely unsuitable.

I have finished all the Rally’s I have entered. Well into double figures. For me that’s the objective.

When I talk to friends who ride, every single one of them object to riding the amount of mileage in such a short space of time. They cite that as not enjoyable for them or it would cost too much in fuel. Economics is a factor.

I like doing big mileage which is why I joined in the first place but it’s not for everyone.

Maybe the banner on the home page of the UK website ‘Welcome to Insanity’ should change? I wouldn’t classify myself as such. I am not insane, I just like a long ride from time to time.

 

[Syntec4]

As a total newbie Ive never done a rally. I've had a look at it but as a beginner it looks a bit complex to get involved. it's not just a case of turn up and have a go and see what happens.
I'm not too bad with technology and can create a route on my laptop or iPad and send out to the GPS without issue. But this doesn't really help with rally 'planning' .

I did many years ago have a go at the ACU NRR which uses a map laid out in a grid or a mesh pattern linking each location but with various options for routing. This made it fairly easy for even beginners as at least you could quickly see what might be possible at your particular skill level without taking on too much.

Is it possible you could maybe combine a RTE somewhere and spend a couple of hours after lunch going through the basics of planning and selecting bonus locations for a decent attempt for anyone who is interested. I would be happy to attend/buy the brews and then likely book in for the next rally once I know roughly what's needed at least to finish.

Cheers
Lee.